In this episode, Willem and I talk a little bit about some of the pain Amasty extensions have caused to Magento developers but also try to provide some constructive criticism to an extension company that solves real world business problems for thousands of merchants (millions? who knows?).

[00:00:00] Kalen: Can I say something small things? Yeah. A little bit critical of Amesty specifically, but I’ll try to say it. This is based on some feedback, but I want to say in a way that is, you know, critical but respectful.

[00:00:15] Willem: It looks mess too. It looks the cut out before was, uh, but, um, I’ll give you. You didn’t have much time to prepare

[00:00:27] Kalen: yeah.

Yeah. That’s for darn sure.

Hello. Welcome to ma talk. I’m Kalyn and I am with him and he’s Willam. And, um, we are here today coming to you. Live from sunny, Georgetown, Cal. I almost said California, Georgetown, Texas. And.

[00:00:47] Willem: Here in the Netherlands and net, Netherlands, I’d be surprised if you know what it is.

Well, maybe Dutch people would know, but, uh, it’s always south in the Netherlands.

[00:00:57] Kalen: Oh wait, you, I thought you said here [00:01:00] in the Netherlands, but what did you say? What’s the name here,

[00:01:02] Willem: here. Oh, that’s

[00:01:05] Kalen: dope. I,

[00:01:07] Willem: what do you talk about like that? I have too much time on, on teaching you how that’s. Oh, that’s all pronounced.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s tricky down the south. I always say it’s near ma and some people that know the Netherlands in slight know where last, if this, because yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s some conventions or like the science really there.

[00:01:30] Kalen: So yeah. Some people totally dude. Um, the, uh, what was the show called Vikings?

Did you watch the show Vikings? No, it was on, um, It was on Hulu.

[00:01:45] Willem: Is that why you get all your knowledge about the Dutch from, from V king?

[00:01:50] Kalen: Most of it. I don’t know if probably, but you, but when you started talking like that, it brought me back to the way they talk a little bit. But did you watch a show? [00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Willem: It’s a great show.

No, I didn’t. I didn’t. Okay. I’m a big fan of the last kingdom though, where you also have Vikings where they, where they try and conquer England.

[00:02:12] Kalen: Right. I love that show. Yeah. I’ve heard that one. Somebody, somebody actually, when I, when I fi I didn’t finish Vikings, but I got to a point in the series where the main character, spoiler alert, Ragnar, Ragnar, he, uh, he dies and, um, you couldn’t take it.

I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t do it. And some people were like, yeah, it’s, it’s kind of still good, but it’s just different. And I was like, sorry. And so, um, so then I had tweeted about it and somebody was told me, you should watch the last kingdom. It’s kind of similar. Um, and then yesterday on TikTok, I saw a post from the actor who plays a Raar and, uh, it was just some random post.

And then I like liked it and I commented and I think he liked my. But I, I didn’t know if it was, oh, my actual [00:03:00] account or some random troll account, but then I clicked and I was like, wait a second. I think this is the actual dude. So, um, anyways, but it’s a very, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a great show. And you have, or,

[00:03:13] Willem: or his social media manager.


[00:03:16] Kalen: Maybe it’s

[00:03:16] Willem: writing social media manager that just

[00:03:20] Kalen: killed that matches. Yeah, you’re supposed to make my morning for the second time, dude. Holy cow, man. Um,

[00:03:32] Willem: uh,

[00:03:33] Kalen: anyways, so, but I actually didn’t know what city you in. Cause I know some of the cities in. The Netherlands, obviously, uh, uh, obviously Amsterdam and then what’s the one Peter Y is in, that’s the, kind of the cool little sort of tech conversation.

This is great.

[00:03:48] Willem: This is great. So you go in, you go in, I know a couple of, I know a couple of cities in the nets, like Amsterdam and you help me with the rest, which others do I

[00:03:58] Kalen: know? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [00:04:00] no. I, I remember, I remember I’ve, I’ve even talked to people about the city randomly, but I’m blanking.


[00:04:08] Willem: P is, uh, from owning

[00:04:10] Kalen: and yes, groaning. I say groan again. I say gro groaning, groaning, and . And you, but that’s like

[00:04:18] Willem: a cool cities. Bigger cities are Rotterdam U tracks. The where the international, uh, cor and behavior. Okay. I, some gentle agencies are from.

[00:04:35] Kalen: Oh, that sounds familiar. What gives you guys the right to have the international court in the Hague?

I never agreed to that to voting on no international.

[00:04:43] Willem: Right. Gives us the rights.

I don’t, I don’t know. I dunno. Brussel has something most of European stuff happens in brussel, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it was, there was one particular [00:05:00] lo that had a good ID and said, I’m the first to go and start doing that here.

[00:05:04] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. um, ,

[00:05:09] Willem: it’s probably some history there, but it’s not really my area of expertise.

[00:05:13] Kalen: What is your area of expertise? When, what do you do? I know

[00:05:16] Willem: nothing. I know nothing beside Megento stuff. That’s good. That’s be nothing. That’s why, that’s why I feel uncomfortable. But some of the things that we discussed earlier, like, like a magic quadrant yeah. And garden stuff. So that’s why, cause she had, uh, uh, Isiah.

no is his, name’s hard like

[00:05:38] Kalen: Isaiah this,

[00:05:39] Willem: yeah. That’s a couple of names that you, that you read over and over and over, but you never pronounce it. Your, I need to a hundred percent recall what the name is like. I don’t, I, yeah, like Casto from Fuman. Yeah, I would recognize his last name a million times ring laugh or something, but it takes [00:06:00] me a lot of time to remember what it was.

Exactly. He’s just Christoff, you know, first name Christoff.

[00:06:05] Kalen: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, that was a fun one with Isaiah and, you know, I’m, he knows a lot more about all the businessy stuff than I do. Um, so it was fun to just kind of you were together probably. Yeah. But then both of us combined, but it was fun to just kind of riff on a little bit of that stuff.

And, um, um, yeah, so that was, that was a good time, but, um, What are we talking about? Talking about today, dude? What are we, what are we getting? Yeah, we’re make a little bit more coffee focusing

[00:06:39] Willem: on my mind. We should maybe give some context about your ruin, your ruined morning because uh,

[00:06:45] Kalen: I told you, yeah, I want to talk about this.

I wanna talk about this. Keep I keep doing, keep,

[00:06:50] Willem: keep going and me keep to in

[00:06:52] Kalen: human. I, yeah, I keep doing it and I understand it’s cringy and it’s awkward, but you know, this is my, you know, as [00:07:00] I’ve said before, I’m, I’m sort of playing with this sort of my own weird brand of humor and it’s, um, you know, I think that.

When you try to I’m the victim yeah, you’re the Vic, you’re the unwitting victim. But when, you know, when you try to, um, when you, when you try to, to, and, and I, it’s funny, cause I’ll listen to podcasts. Talk about. Comedy and stuff like that. And I, you know, and not that I’m a community or anything, but that it’s like, if you’re gonna be funny, you’re gonna play with that line of what’s cringy or awkward or whatever.

And, and when you get it right, you know, it’s funny. And if you get it wrong, then it’s just awkward. And, and the only way. To like, develop that humor muscle is to kind of experiment with it and play with it. And you’re gonna get it wrong. A lot.

[00:07:53] Willem: Spend 10,000 hours making jokes. Exactly. Right.

[00:07:56] Kalen: Exactly. 10,000 hours.

Yeah. So I do, I

[00:07:59] Willem: just, [00:08:00] Brad is almost Brent is almost there.

[00:08:04] Kalen: yeah, he’s always there. So I do this whole. And, um, this whole, uh, this whole God king meme and this whole, and I’ve talked about the, yeah, I do think it’s important to have, uh, uh, a leader of an open source project. I. Not only open source project, but, um, businesses in general, I think founder-led companies do better.

I think that, uh, if Roy and Y would’ve stuck around it, would’ve been a, a different picture. And so part of that there, when I joke about things, there’s a grain of truth and then there’s something funny or absurd about it. And, um, like I said, and, and, and I know that. it makes you cringe because, um, you don’t like that, you know, and this is the other thing I like about you and people don’t realize this, but you know, I, I, behind the scenes, I see how, like you’re a humble guy, you know what I mean?

I remember when you were, we were scheduling a ma [00:09:00] talk and you were just persistently following up to schedule the, the podcast. And, uh, and you were, you had no ego whatsoever in it. It was something that mattered to you. And I think. Everybody has an ego, but I think you have on the lower end of the spectrum, which is part of what also makes it funny to me.

And, but, but I know that I know you’re getting, I know that I know you get crap for it. And, um, And it’s, and it’s a little awkward, but it’s just, you know, I’m, I’m goofing around with this little sense of humor and sometimes it’ll be, it’ll be awkward and you’ll tell me to delete a tweet and, you know,

[00:09:37] Willem: so we’ll see.

I don’t, I mean, we, we, we discuss it in a previous, uh, report that I said, it’s like, it’s cringy. Like when your mom tells you, you are the most pretty boy in the world. Yeah. While others are around, it’s like, mom, it’s like, yeah, I’m eight. I’m not eight anymore. Yeah. And, uh, it’s. it’s, it’s, [00:10:00] it’s different when you say crap like that on the podcast and laugh it away and make, maybe make a comment on it.

But that I don’t really tweets. I

[00:10:09] Kalen: don’t really tweets, endorse weird context. Yeah. Yeah. Tweets are

[00:10:13] Willem: so weird because I reach you tweeting some ging, ridiculous nonsense. And I don’t know how to repo. I, I can’t do right. Like I can’t endorse it. I don’t wanna endorse it. I can’t, I can’t go against it. Like. And it’s like, can I, it’s a check made, dude.

I got here. Yeah.

[00:10:33] Kalen: I got you check made it bro.

[00:10:37] Willem: um,

[00:10:38] Kalen: but yeah, man, so it, uh, I, yeah, it’s I get

[00:10:42] Willem: it. It’s but it’s funny. I mean, this morning I read it and I was in between fi I was here for four days in then Netherland. So, uh, I’ve been, I’ve been texting around and we had an appointment in the morning and I read it just before the appointment.

And, um, I said, oh God can please don’t. So I, I [00:11:00] wrote a one line message to you, like, oh please God remove this. And, uh, and, uh, yeah, it’s how it goes with text messages. You know, a one line message is usually. It’s usually a misinterpreted, like, uh, you, you thought I was super, super mad at you and

[00:11:21] Kalen: yeah. Yeah.

And, um, anyways, so, um, yeah, I, I, I just, uh, I just, I want people to know it’s my own goofy thing. Like William hates it. I do it partly because he hates it and, um, and, uh, so, and you know, like we can have some jokes, you know, I’m also in this weird thing where, you know, I, I was, um, I’ve been, um, Christian for a long time and pretty religious, and then things have, uh, you know, things have, um, I guess evolved a bit for me in recent years.

And so it it’s, uh, [00:12:00] I think I’m also, um, evolved home. Uh, I, I don’t, you know, I don’t know. Maybe we’ll get into this another time, but, but I, I, I think I, like I’ve spent a lot of time reading the Bible. And, um, and memorizing a lot of it and stuff like that. And then I’ve gone in and out of those phases, but so I, and sometimes, like, I get an idea for like a joke that’s related to something in the Bible.

And I it’s, um, I don’t know, man, I’m in a weird phase, dude. I, you know, some like some, some, um, something in the Bible can really deeply resonate with me. And then I can want to tweet something about that as like a joke, a version of it, or sometimes a sincere post related to it. Um, I think about religion a lot.

I think about like, we talked about that whole deal, how everybody has different flavors of religions called different things. Mm-hmm so, um, that that’s a whole other thread in my life right now, [00:13:00] but, um, but

[00:13:02] Willem: are you in church every Sunday? .

[00:13:05] Kalen: Yeah, so we’ve done that for a long time and, uh, . Yeah. So,

[00:13:12] Willem: but with the whole family I, I supposed to, yeah,

[00:13:15] Kalen: yeah, yeah.

Whole fam cool whole family anyways. Um, I,

[00:13:23] Willem: I mean, I, um, and I don’t even think in my family, we have something like a ritual like that, that we do with, I mean, we’re just with the three. um, mm-hmm but this that’s not one thing that we do every week on the same, exact same time. Um, which that alone seems lovely to.

Yeah. To have some, a common thing and, uh, yeah, like a ritual that you do

[00:13:49] Kalen: together a hundred percent. And I, and I, and this is one of the, the themes that I think about is that, is that, you know, um, whether you believe in a certain book or not, I think what’s [00:14:00] universal to human beings is, is rituals. Um, and I think that, you know, we sort of go, well, I don’t know if.

idea or this belief system makes sense to me in my head. So I’m not gonna do it. And now there’s no, there’s like the it’s, there’s like a framework that in many ways, undergirds, like society, like even think going back to the, the, the Vikings movie, right? Like, like you, you look at into the Vikings, they had a very different belief system and some that’s pretty cool.

Um, but it, it undergirded everything that made them do what they did, how they lived. The reason they had priorities, um, it, it held society together and families together. Um, so I think, uh, yes, so I think stuff like that is, is important, but I’m also, I think I was a lot more closed minded in the past where it’s like, Hey, if you’re not in my group, you’re going to hell.

And that. And, and I think that that’s something that’s changed for me in recent years. And, [00:15:00] um, I think that I just feel a lot. Closer to people in general and a lot more like, uh, love and affection for people in general, regardless of what they believe or don’t believe. Um, so I think that’s.

[00:15:16] Willem: I think that’s important because otherwise, if you would’ve found out in New York and you would’ve rejected me, once you found out dare that I wasn’t in your group.

That would’ve really.

[00:15:27] Kalen: Yeah. We would’ve all the fun yeah. Standing at the Hiva booth and I’m like, William, do you, do you believe in Jesus? And you’re like, no, and I’m. oh,

[00:15:36] Willem: no. I mean, if you’re gonna call it, Hiva you, you, you won’t be standing at the booth for long anyway, like we’ll have a special group of people that call it.


[00:15:47] Kalen: did I, I just say Hiva because I, I actually purposely try to say Hova, believe it or not. I, I do that

[00:15:55] Willem: intentionally don’t I really don’t. I, I really don’t. I. I think that [00:16:00] should just be left to interpretation. I I’ve been thinking of, obviously I’ve been thinking about this a lot and it’s just funny that, um, somehow we’re so international these days that you, that, that this is a topic, but in like years ago, okay.

Let me give an example. We had the, uh, the two most famous shoe brands. yeah, they’re pronounced entirely different where you live and where I live.

[00:16:27] Kalen: Right, right, right, right, right. Right.

[00:16:30] Willem: And, and before the internet, before podcasts and videos and whatever, I never ever heard anyone say Adidas, and I guess you say Adidas.

How do you call Adidas? You say Adidas. Adidas. Okay. So we say Adidas.

[00:16:49] Kalen: Oh, nice. and

[00:16:50] Willem: at Nikes Nikes, Nike is an old Greek guard called Nikki Nikki mm-hmm Nikki. [00:17:00] And we say Nike mm-hmm and then, and using Nike mm-hmm . So, and those, those are two of the most famous brands. Around the world and pretty much everyone here, that’s not super internationally focused.

Mm-hmm all people they would say night and Adida and, uh, you would say something entirely different. So please be ignorant and say, hi, bye. I don’t, that’s a thing.

[00:17:26] Kalen: Thank you. As an, as an American, as an American, I appreciate you giving me the permission to be. To be ignorant. That’s that’s my, I feel that’s my God-given right.

[00:17:40] Willem: Oh, sorry. I’m I always wanted to say you should do what your best to say what cross the lines here. You always wanted to say what it’s. One of the things that you do best is one of the things that you do best you remind Touche, Touche. Touche. No, no. Yeah. [00:18:00] Most, most of you Don.

[00:18:03] Kalen: we’ve got a couple good apples out here in the, in the land of the free home of the brave.

[00:18:09] Willem: Yeah. I’m so excited about New York. I mean, probably people listening to it are like, oh my God, it’s the first time. First time they’re talking. And it’s only about New York, it’s all that I, it’s not you’re coming. And you’re getting, you’re getting all these people ruffled up to, uh, to join us. Are you going to do a little meet?

The day after

[00:18:31] Kalen: absolutely Saturday. Absolutely. Yeah. I think we should do a meet up at the hotel, the court. What is it? The courtyard times square west

[00:18:44] Willem: that would be convenience is that’s the hotel where, where let’s just do it

[00:18:48] Kalen: at the, let’s just do it at the hotel bar. Right. Mm-hmm and, um, Keep it simple, man.

We’re not paying anybody’s anything you come there and you pay for your own drinks. Um, [00:19:00] No sponsors nothing fancy. Maybe we do an on the fly un-conference style. Un-conference right there at the bar. Or maybe we just hang out, you know what I mean? But we’ll figure it out.

[00:19:14] Willem: Yeah. Um, I’m looking forward to the whole thing.

I’m gonna be there from the 21st to the 24th or 20. Yeah, 24th. I think I fly back. So, um, Can enjoy, uh, maybe I’ll buy a new iPhone there because I just saw, they were announced, uh, last night. Oh, really? Yesterday for you, new iPhones. And they are 500 euros more expensive. Like the start prices, a thousand, like it’s a thousand dollars.

In the us mm-hmm and it’s almost 1500 euros here and that’s crazy today. The Euro and the dollar are pretty much equal. Like they’re, mm-hmm they’re the same value. [00:20:00] Mm-hmm so, um, Yeah, it’s much more expensive. Uh, I mean, they’ve always been, it’s always been a little bit cheaper to buy them right in the us, but, uh, this seems, uh, a lot more

[00:20:13] Kalen: expensive.

And are you one of these guys that you get the brand new iPhone every time it comes out? No. I

[00:20:20] Willem: always get a couple, like if it’s still good, it’s still good. Uh, right now I have. I think the 12, but, uh, the screen is kind of broken. It has a, a broken line, like, uh, there’s a line of pixels that are dead. So I have a bright, bright blue line in my screen.

And if I want have it prepared, I will need to give them my phone for, I don’t know, two weeks. And I can’t do without my phone. Right. So, uh, I’m waiting for a new model. I’ll see if I can get this one fixed after.

[00:20:53] Kalen: Nice. Nice. Yeah. Are you an iPhone man? Probably. I, you know, I was an Android man. And then, um, I [00:21:00] got an iPhone and I get an old, I get ’em old, dude.

I get like a, I have like an iPhone 10. I get like a refurbished iPhone, 10 mm-hmm . Um,

[00:21:11] Willem: that’s I feel from that moment, starting with the iPhone X or 10, they arrived at a peak point where. the phone was so good that you don’t need to upgrade really upgrade anymore. Uh, and the thing is that my wife needed a new one.

[00:21:29] Kalen: The wife always needs a new one. The wife always needs the best one. The best camera, all

[00:21:33] Willem: this kind of stuff. No, no, no, no, no. I disagree. She didn’t need a new, new one. She just needed mine and then I could buy it to new. So, uh, yeah, she got my 10 and then I upgraded, but, uh, I didn’t necessarily need to upgrade.

And the 10 is still like a really good, really good, uh, device. So, right.

[00:21:55] Kalen: I just got a, sorry to cut you off. I just got a notification. I have a, a call in 30. [00:22:00] So we, we, I wish, uh, we had more time, but, uh, we got 30, we got hard stop. 30 minutes, 30 minutes, hard stop. And 30. My apologies. So we’re gonna have to we’re it’s three

[00:22:11] Willem: minutes or in another 30 minutes.

[00:22:12] Kalen: 30 half hour. Yeah. Yeah. 30, 30 minutes. Three

[00:22:16] Willem: zero. So that’s fine.

[00:22:16] Kalen: So another half hour? No, yeah, we’re good. I just, no, I just, I, it, you know, just wanted to, wanted to, um, I didn’t, I didn’t even know I had a meeting at that time until my watch told me. Good. Sorry for interrupting now, but, um,

[00:22:32] Willem: no. So how are, how are things evolving for you?

How much can you share publicly about your

[00:22:39] Kalen: super stealth? I think any week now, um, I’m gonna be ready to announce. But it’s it’s so I, I would love nothing more than to start diving into it because I’m insanely excited about it. Um, but yeah, I have to, [00:23:00] I can’t do that quite yet, but Ugh. So probably for, I think for sure for next week, I’ll be, I’ll be ready to go.

I’m just trying to talk to some people one on one about it before I make the big announcement,

[00:23:19] Willem: I feel your struggle. Not to spill, not to, not to say

[00:23:24] Kalen: anything. You got a little something too, a little something cooking.

[00:23:28] Willem: No, I feel your struggle not to, uh, to say what you’re up to. Yeah,

[00:23:33] Kalen: yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It goes against every bone in my body, not to talk about what I’m up to, but for some specific reasons, I, I have to, uh, I have to have a few

[00:23:43] Willem: one.

So I guess this is the section where we say what, what we’ve been working. Yes. What we’ve been doing recently. Yes. Um, and you are not sharing, so I’ll, I’ll share.

[00:23:56] Kalen: Yeah. You’re gonna have to carry this, this, uh, segment. This is all [00:24:00] you.

[00:24:01] Willem: Yeah. I had son Pakistan in the office this week who started as our commercial

[00:24:09] Kalen: director.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s.

[00:24:12] Willem: a lot of people might know her in the Magental community as she’s been commercial manager at hyper note for eight or nine years, even, uh, previously. Yeah. So she, uh, she knows the community very, very well. Yeah. And she understands the product very well, and we got her very excited to, um, to join Hiva and, uh, that’s huge.

And, um, I don’t, I don’t really know what I’m doing commercial wise. I mean, we’re building a great business, but she has such a, such a good understanding of how to, um, How to launch our new products and how to, uh, how to put up, uh, a bit of marketing campaigns and, uh, partner management, right. And how we can [00:25:00] help our partners and our merchants, um, and agencies.

Uh, achieve great things with our products and it’s, it’s great. Uh, it feels, she takes a lot of things off my hands. So it’s like, um, I was talking about the amnesty partnership and, uh, uh, we just announced that recently said, I just, I only need to write a block post about it. And she and I. I, I could, I could, I could write it for you.

Oh, fantastic. And it’s like, with a lot of these things, like, oh, I still need to prepare some things for New York. You need to know what, what color cable tablecloth we need. Mm-hmm it’s like, I got it. and, uh, yeah, just going to an, to going to a conference and, uh, and, and setting up the booth and. Get proper banners there and everything just, it it’s a lot of time.

Um, yeah.

[00:25:53] Kalen: And, uh, can I say something small things? Yeah. A little bit critical of Amesty [00:26:00] specifically, but I’ll try to say it. This is related to. what I will say is I’ve been, re-engaging a bit more with reg Geno community and stuff like that. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm this is based on some feedback, but I want to say in a way that is, you know, critical but respectful.

is that

[00:26:23] Willem: okay. It hooks into one of the talking points that we, um, that we had in the dock, which is related to, uh, jet rails. So you, you go ahead and we weave that into jets and amnesty thing.

[00:26:35] Kalen: Is there a dock? My bad dude,

[00:26:38] Willem: we still have the dock. Same doc. You have the dock from the, yeah. Oh, was this from, still hanging around for the first and the second?

absolutely did I didn’t just crossing all things that we already talked about and what we had.

[00:26:50] Kalen: Wait, so did you have the jet reels, amnesty thing in the dock that you set up? Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm very interesting. Four weeks [00:27:00] already for weeks, dude. You were, you build up, you, you were way give it some context.

All right. So the context is that, um, obviously amnesty has a huge footprint in the community, right? A lot of people have. And it’s funny because it’s been so long since I’ve been at the code level that I don’t even remember the specifics, but a lot of people have run into a lot of scenarios where an amnesty module is conflicting with one thing or another, right.

I’m not, I’m not sharing any, any specific references from any specific people. A lot of people go, I don’t want to touch amnesty modules. I don’t wanna deal with them. They cause a lot of problems. They cause a lot of conflicts right now. Um, the, um, the, uh, jet rails partnership with Amnesty’s interesting.

It’s like a, it’s like a pass SAS type of a thing. Mm-hmm where you get a hosted Magento and you can use amnesty modules now. Mm-hmm [00:28:00] and, and by the way, I don’t personally, I think, I think that, I think in terms of there’s the code level stuff, there’s the community level stuff. There’s the ecosystem level stuff.

Part of the thing is that when there’s somebody who is at the, at conferences in the community, whatever, that, whatever that means exactly on social media, whatever that in the community means, um, uh, we are going to it’s if they’re not in the community, it’s very easy to just criticize them brutally, especially if there’s anything, any, anything problematic about their.

If they’re in the community course, just think to criticize, it’s easy to criticize. If they’re in the community, you’re going to be more diplomatic. Right. Um, if you have a partner program, if somebody’s well respected, you’re gonna be a lot more diplomatic. You’re gonna think twice before criticizing them.

So these are just sort of human dynamics. Now. I don’t really personally know anyone from amnesty, I don’t think. Right. And so I think that part of the thing there is that if you [00:29:00] do, and you can talk to somebody and then, and you can. Like, do you guys understand the level of pain that you’re causing X people in X scenarios?

And then you see, is there an understanding there, or, you know, there’s certain companies that are just like, Hey man, we’re, we’re out here making money. We’re doing this. We don’t care about your problem. You know, you X, Y, and Z. I’m not saying that’s the case. That can be the case. Yeah. And so basically, but the counter argument, right, is mm-hmm that, you know, am SD has a ton of modules, right?

Mm-hmm , you know, they’ve put a lot of stuff out there. They’ve solved a lot of real world business problems. I think your integration strategy is super smart with getting, um, uh, extension vendors integrating with, with Hova. Um, and so. You know, it’s like, show me another extension vendor that has, this has done this many different things has solved this many different [00:30:00] problems and ha doesn’t have a few issues here and there with code conflicts, number one, number two, you know, um, There’s people who let’s say are leaving Magento or having, you know, severe issues with Magento, not because of amnesty issues, but because of they’re using extension X, Y, and Z, and it was not updated fast enough for whatever specific Magento version, increment, whatever specific thing.

Right. So. And that might be an extension that’s well respected in the community, but if they’re not moving fast enough on solving certain business problems that can cause merchants to wanna leave. And so you, you might say, well, the percentage, there’s a significant percentage of merchants who are leaving cuz of X, Y, Z conflict.

Maybe it’s caused underlying by Adobe’s release strategy with the versions, whatever, and you go, well, who’s causing more of this sort of. Pain in the [00:31:00] ecosystem from that perspective. And you might say, well, maybe Amnesty’s doing pretty well in that department. Right. Especially when you factor in the fact that they have so many different extensions, so many different da da, da, da.

Um, so that’s kind of my, so overall take on, um,

[00:31:17] Willem: There’s nothing as difficult as managing a reputation. And you’re so vulnerable when you have hundreds of extensions. Yeah. And you have maybe a hundred developers working for you. Yeah. You’ll never be in a situation where a hundred of your employees are all rock stars that output the highest level of quality as a company.

It would be great if you have quality assurance and even. And the developer build something that’s maybe below bar that it’s not being released. Um, but, um, is the train, track noise too loud? Do you hear that? Does [00:32:00] I have to window open? You don’t hear it? No. Okay. Perfect. I think, I

[00:32:02] Kalen: think I can. It’s barely.

And then I think the sound of normalization will remove it

[00:32:06] Willem: to post. So, um, um, being that big, having that many extensions, um, the quality. Usually vary. And if you have a couple, a couple of extensions that are, have bad performance, Influence, um, people are going to judge you just based on that. And you can have 95 great extensions and five bad ones.

Yeah. And it will ruin your repetition and, and these kind of things stick around for a long time. We, we mentioned, I talk in, uh, I think two episodes back mm-hmm and you said, when we, when we were talking about, I cube, we joked a little bit about it. Like mm-hmm I still. And they are in fact still around.

And, uh, mm-hmm I, I spoke to them recently. One, uh, they, they, um, was

[00:32:58] Kalen: it I talk or [00:33:00] energy that we mentioned with the iTalk.

[00:33:03] Willem: I okay. Or uni. Okay. But the, well same goes for both. Same, same different . Yeah. Yeah. Um, they had the same repetition issues, um, that they were using. I cube and that’s the thing long of the past.

And, uh, actually there’s even a new owner. Um, Of I talk. Uh, so, so that business is being run, run completely different. Um, and with, with MSST, it’s a very big company and they, they have some high quality extensions. They have some. Last high quality extensions. And it’s funny that, um, uh, what was being mentioned was, uh, the load in the loop episodes, the podcast that usually, uh, what they found was, um, uh, an extension from amnesty, uh, causing performance issues.

And, uh, the whole, the whole podcast load in the loop is about. Um, load in the loop. So [00:34:00] loading data models in Magento, in the loops instead of fetching in collection of products. Yeah. At once. Yeah. You, you, you load apparent collection and then you iterate over them and fetch data per products, and that’s a load in the loop and that causes you seconds of delay.

If you have a big catalog and you’re request. Product data in that way. And that’s something that’s very easy to, uh, exponentially build in, into an extension. If you’re an extension developer and you’re just Googling on stack overflow, how to fetch attribute data from a product. That’s the first example that you’ll find.

Yeah. And, um, good, good quality, uh, assurance would probably run performance, uh, tests like black fire to find, to find these issues. Um, well, and to

[00:34:49] Kalen: me, it’s also a question of responsiveness, like, okay. Yeah, you’re gonna put a load in the loop. Everybody’s done it. The question is when the problem is raised, wherever it’s raised, however it’s [00:35:00] raised, do you go, oh shoot, this is important.

Let me fix this right away. Or you go, or does it funnel through? And it never gets fixed and whatever. And I don’t know. I don’t know. I, I don’t know. Mm-hmm how quickly or slowly something like that is, uh, handle. In that specific scenario, but to me like it, like, for example, you’re an extension vendor, you’re a theme vendor.

Mm-hmm if there was some kind of a load that kind of a performance level type of an issue or something equally problematic, you guys would be on it because you got one product you’re focused on it. It’s best to breed for one thing, you don’t have 150 extensions. Right. Um, mm-hmm and so that I think is very important is how quickly are people responding to problems that, that crop up.

[00:35:47] Willem: Yeah. Yeah. And as a, as a community, I don’t, perhaps some agencies ran into issues with amnesty extensions and they reported it and it wasn’t fixed, but I can also [00:36:00] imagine that agencies would see that there’s an issue and then say the extension is crap and just remove it. And get on with it. mm-hmm and don’t don’t don’t don’t give them the space to, um, to improve their extension.

[00:36:15] Kalen: I don’t know. I don’t know about that. And that’s, and I don’t know. I literally don’t know either. And that’s where, when you, it goes back to partnership program, right? Like you have Simon building out your partnership. It goes back to there’s a lot of power in being involved in the community, being available, hearing what people are saying, having, having.

People that you have good relationships with so that when somebody runs into an issue, instead of just putting you blast on public and deleting the extension, they bring it to your attention. Maybe it, maybe they wait a week for it to get resolved or whatever. Um, but that’s a much sort of happier cycle overall.

And I, I don’t actually know how that’s handled or not handled. I just know that almost everybody I know. In a certain segment of the community is like, [00:37:00] nah, don’t like these extensions. And I think my overall goal, like I love the fact that you’re collaborating together. My overall goal is that, Hey, if this is something amnesty does care about, if there is a lot of good stuff that they’re doing and they are committed to these types of quality issues, like let’s, let’s bring ’em into the fold.

You know what I mean? Like let’s strengthen this whole, whole community together. and they’re

[00:37:23] Willem: pretty HandsOn with the whole HOAs thing. Uh, they they’re, they’re more responsive than I am. They’ve been waiting more for my, for me to respond than the other way around mm-hmm . Um, and yet I certainly know what that feels like.

[00:37:39] Kalen: no, that, and that’s a, and that’s a good sign. That’s a good.

[00:37:44] Willem: To, to reiterate what you said. Well, that’s why I needed sauna because I, I just have too many, too many communication channels that I, that I’m, that I try to take care of and yeah, on a daily basis, I get these, these, these little messages on LinkedIn with support requests [00:38:00] or, or people interested asking me things and then horrendous, and then on, on Twitter.

And, uh, in, in one of the five slacks that I’m part of, and it’s just really hard to, to manage yeah. Manage all of this notifications, uh, and, and keeping track of everything. So I try to pull everything into an email and then work through them. But, um, yeah, there’s only so much time. Yeah. And luckily, um, It’s I get to my emails, like, can we hop on a call?

And it’s just, I can’t, I can’t just always hop on a call. Yeah. Um, but, but now I have someone that, that will be able to hop on calls. Yeah. And that’s a fantastic feeling because that’s so much better for the customer experience. Yeah. And receiving and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And to reiterate what you said about, about AMS D um, they, they’re also solving a real issue.

In the market, like they a hundred percent. And it was, it was mentioned in the, in the FRA on slack that you, where you, where you, um, [00:39:00] where you got the topic from, basically the conversation that was happening on slack.

[00:39:04] Kalen: Yeah. And the slack stuff is all private. Um, so we’re not gonna mention any, any, any, all, you know, anything we mention is a anonymized.


[00:39:13] Willem: I’m a, I’m a politician, you know? Yeah. , you know, but now. Um, no, but I just wanted to say, um, uh, there was a good argument and I feel the same, um, um, for, for merchants that don’t have a million dollar budget extensions. Like the ones from amnesty are the simplest solutions to get a feature building.

And, um, if you’re running a million dollar. then your agency should be capable, capable enough to evaluate the quality of an extension, regardless of which extension provider, because all of the extension providers have super bar extensions. Mm-hmm and I wouldn’t know of one that, that doesn’t have high and low quality extensions.

Mm-hmm [00:40:00] uh, mm-hmm um, As a, as a, as an agency, you should be able to evaluate how good an extension works and decide which to work with and which don’t. And especially the, the high end projects, they work with custom written code because in the end it’s much. Much better to write one particular feature for your project and take an extension that also takes in 10 other features in that extension, which mm-hmm , you don’t need and they slow down and it’s extra code overhead.

Yeah. Um, but if you have, if you’re running a store on the lower budget and that’s where the, the collaboration of, of. Uh, jet jet rails and, um, an amnesty comes in, um, they offer a fully functional store for lower end market for a fixed price. And you can use any amnesty extension in that store. It’s included in a price.

So as a Bootstrap’s kind of interesting, yeah. To, to get started it’s interest. Interesting. And, [00:41:00] and since amne, Steve is giving you the support. Um, you, you would expect that those extensions all work well together. And, um, that’s actually, it’s a good competition for some SaaS

[00:41:12] Kalen: solutions. Yeah. And I actually didn’t know.

I, I didn’t spend enough time, um, reading about exactly how it worked, but the fact that I did see the price points, they’re like 1200, 1500 some somewhere along those lines. But the, the idea that you have a fixed price, it includes your hosting and any of their extensions, which essentially, and again, upgrade their security patches.

That actually is I will, and I’m gonna get roasted by a lot of people for this, but that’s kind of cool. Um, that model and, and listen, people have tried this model, right? Creativity, people have tried to build out this lower end of the market. This what essentially big commerce is tackling, um, what Shopify is sort of tackling Magento version.

And a lot of people tried [00:42:00] and it’s not easy. And so that’s actually kind of neat. Um, if there wasn’t

[00:42:06] Willem: a market for their extensions, if they weren’t doing a lot of things, They wouldn’t be the number one extension provider in Megento land. Yeah. And not so many people would be using their extensions. Yeah.

Yeah. So you can focus on the things that are not good and that that’s valid. I mean, if you’re running a million dollar store, maybe that’s not the fit for you, but if you are, if, if you have a junior developer building your store, 20 K. And that’s the full budget. Yeah. Uh, you can’t have custom build features for everything.

You can’t have them build a help desk or, or a custom forms, uh, or a ethic queue. That’s completely custom built because yeah. The developer doesn’t have the knowledge yet and, uh, you don’t have to budget. Yeah. So that’s what you can pick or you go with a SA solution and then you pay. Different fees.

[00:42:59] Kalen: [00:43:00] Yeah.

Yeah. So it’s, it’s kind of, it’s kind of an interesting option. I do generally prefer extension vendors who have one, or like a small number of extensions. They really focus on ’em they really make the best of breed. Um, I FUMA really

[00:43:18] Willem: focuses on PDF emails and

[00:43:20] Kalen: paradox labs.

[00:43:22] Willem: He has some cool stuff, private.

Exactly. They have subscription. Extensions, this sort of one particular issue really well.

[00:43:29] Kalen: Yeah, we should, at some point go through like the awesome Magento, um, list from, uh, from David Landauer and, um, just chat through all that stuff, but there’s um, yeah, so that’s generally, I like that model for a number of reasons, but obviously you do have these extension vendors out there that are serving a huge portion of the market.

And what I’m saying is, listen, there is this level of resentment in the [00:44:00] community. There is this level of pain being caused for X, Y, and Z. Let’s figure it out. You know what I mean? Let’s, let’s somehow have a conversation, um, of crazy. Yeah. Whenever people say let’s have a conversation, it’s kind of a, it’s kind of a BS statement.

But if there’s somebody we can talk to over there that can say, Hey man, Do you understand what what’s going on here? How are we fixing this? What’s thees? What are the escalation paths? Um,

[00:44:27] Willem: I will ping them to see if they want to, if, if they want to do an interview and just talk about how,

[00:44:33] Kalen: uh, and I don’t know abouts.

I mean, we can, we’ll talk about that. That might be, we might, we might, that might be a bit, a bit much, but we’ll see. We’ll see. We’ll figure that . Um, but, um, That was good. I, I feel like that was a good, fair, um, coverage of the whole thing from many different angles. Um, so

[00:44:59] Willem: yeah, and [00:45:00] I, I, I just think I like there’s so much negativity has been around in a Magental world.

Yeah. And, uh, some of it has been caught for some of it not really. Um, and I’m just trying to, I’m trying to steer away of that a little bit. Yeah. And, um, yeah. And focus on the positive things. I mean, we. if you don’t have positive things to focus on, and a lot of things are crap, then it’s a hard thing to do, but I feel there’s so many great things that we have in the Magental community and especially in our, in our Hoover community.

Yeah. We just try to bring all the good vibes. Yeah. And, uh, it’s funny because I’ve, I’ve been explaining to, to son in the last week, what, what Hiva stands for and yeah. And, um, and, uh, it’s nice because explaining that makes me like reiterate and like, like reaffirm for myself that we’re here to, to make people happy and to do the good things for the merchants and the agency.

That’s cool. And, uh, [00:46:00] we talked about that. We don’t, we don’t take any com uh, payment providers offer us like partnership to take commissions or payments. And, uh, and we say entirely clear of that. Um, I don’t think that’s our, our place to do that because, um, That in my eyes is, is, uh, where, where agencies should decide where those fees go.

Like, do you give the discount to an merchant or do you let, uh, an agency, they take the first line support? So they actually work for, for being the intermediate between the payment provider and merchant. Yeah. So if they want to take a little kickback. They totally should. But if we start to do that, then we’re taking money away from, from agencies.


[00:46:45] Kalen: And when I, when I first found out that people would just on the, on the sneak tip would drop their affiliate referral code into the Magento settings for PayPal or whatever. It completely blew my mind. Um, [00:47:00] but,

[00:47:00] Willem: uh, oh yeah. Re remind me what, what, there was a third party, PayPal extension I don’t or integration.

And that’s used a, a referral link. It might

[00:47:10] Kalen: have even been first PayPal. It might have even been first party. I can’t remember. I just remember there was a way to put your referral code in and they would just drop it in. And you know, I mean, I don’t think that’s unethical. It’s, it’s a little, it’s kind of it’s and then once people are more aware,

[00:47:27] Willem: wait, wait, if you are building an open source third party extension that lets you do something third in your mag

[00:47:34] Kalen: account.

Third party. No, no, no. I

[00:47:36] Willem: mean, well first party is even worse. Is someone who, who was the person making the referral revenue data

[00:47:44] Kalen: then? Well, like the scenario that I’m the scenario I’m thinking of is an agency builds a site and then they build the site and they go in and then they put their referral code in.

So they get some commission, um, [00:48:00] on payments revenue. That’s, that’s what I’m remembering to me. That’s not, it’s probably better to have a conversation about that. With your client mm-hmm , but I wouldn’t say that’s unethical necessarily to drop because it’s not coming outta their pocket anyway. It’s it’s, you know, mm-hmm, , it’s not, you know, you’re not inflating their fees or anything like that.

Probably better to talk about it. Yeah. But it, it was just funny to me and I’ve never done that personally, but I just thought it was kind of wild that you could just drop a in there, start as an

[00:48:28] Willem: agency. I think you also have the responsibility to, to help your merchants negotiate and find. Payment provider that has the best rates.

And, um, I know I, I totally, I took on some projects in my agency days where someone did, uh, $80,000 per month in PayPal. And, uh, you may think that’s high or low whatever, but they were paying the full, the full. Fees for that. The full percentage mm-hmm while if you’re, if you’re [00:49:00] both, I don’t know what, 30, 50 K per month you can get like a severe discount on your PayPal transactions.

Mm-hmm mm-hmm you need only to send one email to PayPal and they activate a discount. That’s crazy. That’s crazy. Um, and with payment providers, it’s the same. Uh, you can, if you have certain volume of transactions, you can negoti. Uh, discounts. And as a agency, you’ve already earned yourself back, uh, for the merchant mm-hmm

Um, I took on one like that, that one merchant that was paying too much for PayPal. They were also, uh, paying the full amount for their, uh, regular transactions and we negotiated discounts. And within the first week that we worked with them, they already. almost almost a hundred thousand euros for the first year.

They said, this is already going to save us a hundred thousand euros this year. That’s awesome. So, uh, yeah, that was pretty good. Round up. I know you you’re close to, um, yeah, close to, uh, an time. [00:50:00] I just wanted to finish up like the, my trainer for, um, uh, about the negativity in community and trying to steer away from.

Oh, that’s

[00:50:08] Kalen: a whole, I have so thoughts on this. I wanted to this, maybe this is a good one, cuz I had a whole rant on it as well. Maybe we, but, but yeah, wrap it up.

[00:50:18] Willem: Yeah. Um, we really nurture the atmosphere on our slack. Like I really, if I see someone say, if someone asks, does anyone use this and this extension and someone responds like, yeah, it’s crap.

I immediately write them. Like, please reword that.

[00:50:37] Kalen: Um, yeah, I have so many thoughts on this. I wish I wish I didn’t have a hard stop literally. Right, right now I have so

[00:50:45] Willem: many thoughts. Okay. So we have a cliff

[00:50:46] Kalen: hanger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cliff hanger for next week. It’s gonna be good. It’s gonna be fantastic.

cool. Okay. Well thanks. Little catching up tuning in. Sorry for cutting that off. Um, I accidentally scheduled [00:51:00] something when I shouldn’t have, because I should have known we were

gonna do this on the fly, but, um, we will see everybody soon in New York. If you’re not going to New York, get a ticket because you’re gonna be hating life.

If you don’t. That’s all I have to say. And, um, I concur next week. Thanks everybody for tuning.