In this episode, Willem and Kalen talk about the branding issues related to Magento Open Source vs. Magento Commerce in relation to the Adobe Commerce branding. Also socks. This episode is brought to you by: - MageChat - https://magechat.club/ - Hyva Themes - https://hyva.io/
00:00 Intro
01:55 MM22NYC - The history of the event and why Kalen only brought home socks
07:18 Meet Commerce, the bring-your-wife conference in Madrid December 2022
09:31 Mingling with other platforms at conferences, are we allowing ourselves?
18:57 The uniqueness of MageUnconference in Germany
21:28 Jisse pulling back to Magento roots
25:14 The community needs to represent Magento brand
28:43 Kalen goes awkward for a minute
30:40 Harrison Loveall got the Magento Magic experience
31:59 #OrangeIsNotRed, why the Magento brand is so important
35:43 Adobe does good for the community
38:50 Magento will be long supported, how MageOs fits in nicely
40:38 Hyvä and Adobe Commerce support
48:13 About acquisition and spending time with Gene Commerce
51:42 Everybody loves Eric Erway
53:44 Magento open source contribution voting board (MA)
58:01 Who's maintaining the Magento code base?
1:02:50 MageOS and Magento OS working in harmony
1:08:42 The PTHML Twitter directive
[00:00:00] Willem: That's what we currently need for, we need the community to start representing Magento as a brand because Adobe refuses to represent the brand Magento right now. And, and I've been talking to them for a year to Adobe people and trying to get them to clear out that message and, and stop saying "Magento is now Adobe Commerce", which is a false statement, Magento Commerce became Adobe Commerce, but Magento open source still is magenta open source
[00:00:30]
[00:00:27] Kalen: Magetalk is a podcast about the Magento community. Magetalk is brought to you by Future Commerce, a podcast by Philip Jackson, the original brains behind Magetalk itself. And by MageChat, a private community that I started for the Magento community as well as other sub communities. I just said community way too many times.
So you can check that out at magechat.club. Uh, thanks so [00:01:00] much and, uh, onto the episode. It.
[00:01:07] Willem: Welcome to Magetalk. This is episode 237 and my name is, ,
[00:01:14] Kalen: and I'm Kalen and we are, we're diving right in.
I'm gonna pull up the dock. You, you did a, I want to commend you for your work on the dock. I, I took a quick peek at it and I just have to figure out where to find it now, [00:01:30] but it looks
[00:01:30] Willem: like you, so much, so much has changed between episodes. This is the fourth one we're doing together now. Is it And it's only fourth?
I
[00:01:39] Kalen: think so. I think it's the fifth. I wanna say it's the fifth. But I'll, I'm okay with. I'll review the records and we'll, we'll verify that.
[00:01:49] Willem: We'll set that straight. Like all the other mistakes that we've made so far that we agreed to set straight. That's what we do now. At least, at least I learned that I was right about the fact that [00:02:00] Kimberly Thomas started meet Magento, New York and then Ignacio with Interact four took over later.
Yes. And then Eric Hillman, uh, with Major Mojo and uh, now it's in the hands of K
[00:02:15] Kalen: There's a lot of, there's a very, there's a very long and winding backstory to the, to the, uh, uh, hosting of Meet Magenta New York, which we will not give
[00:02:26] Willem: into. It's got history.
[00:02:27] Kalen: It's, it's got history. History. It's a, [00:02:30] it. It is a fascinating historical artifact in the Magento community.
And aside from that, it was just a good time. I had a frigging blast.
[00:02:40] Willem: Uh, so what swag did you bring home? Any, anything particular that I might be looking at
[00:02:47] Kalen: right now? The answer to your question. Okay, so you do, you do see, uh, the answer to your question is this is the only, literally, the only, I'm, I, I have [00:03:00] no, I, I decided up front, I was not gonna carry any bags.
I was not gonna carry any shirts. I was not gonna carry anything. So they gave me the bag when I checked in with the thing in it and the flyers or whatever the bag has. Okay.
[00:03:14] Willem: Threw out of the
[00:03:15] Kalen: window and I walked, I, I almost did that. But being as environmentally friendly as I. I was going to get some coffee, and right away, right off the bat, right, I'm trying to get some coffee.
I'm [00:03:30] trying to start getting my network on. I'm trying to settle in, and now I have a bag and I have to do coffee with a bag in my hand. So all I did is I said, You know what? Let me just set this down. I, I went ahead, I sent it down on, on a, on a ledge by one of the columns around the thing. And I said, Maybe I'll pick this up later.
Maybe I won't, you know, And then in the end, I, I didn't, But the, here, here's the thing with the socks, by the way, [00:04:00] is that they fit right in your pocket. They fit right in your pocket. Because I also said, I don't wanna do a backpack either, you know, carrying a backpack around with a laptop and a power cord all day long gets old.
[00:04:13] Willem: And I'm, it's, it's not like you've gotta work during the day, during the conference. Like, like
[00:04:18] Kalen: absolutely not. , absolutely
[00:04:20] Willem: not. I do conference, I often have that, like during the conference he had this emergency calls, the developer working at the agency or just when they quickly
[00:04:29] Kalen: do [00:04:30] something mean, you have actual work to do.
You have actual thousands of developers using your stuff. You have a team, you're hiring people, you're dealing with things, you know, this is why you're having an impact, which is great and fantastic. And I prefer to post memes and, you know, keep it, keep it simple, you know. But [00:05:00] you've gotta have both.
You've gotta have both.
[00:05:03] Willem: It's not sophisticated. Get sophisticated discussions between extension vendors and agency. Uh, almost,
[00:05:11] Kalen: yeah.
[00:05:15] Willem: Yeah. So I'm about, Yeah. Challenge accepted.
[00:05:18] Kalen: Yeah, Yeah, yeah. . Yeah. That's gonna be
[00:05:22] Willem: interesting. Um, sweet. But I, I love the socks that you're wearing. They are from a hyper note, by the way. Let's
[00:05:28] Kalen: just call them out. They haven't paid. They haven't [00:05:30] paid for that. They haven't paid for. Noted
[00:05:32] Willem: yet. Haven't, Well, what we need to do, they let, they let Ilana, their, uh, support manager, head of support.
They let her join us to New York. She was
[00:05:42] Kalen: fantastic. I love Ilana more than I can describe. We had a lot of, uh, deep conversations as well as some conversations about tech. We had about 90% deep personal conversations. [00:06:00] 7%. We talked a little bit about some of the support stuff and some of the hosting stack stuff.
There
[00:06:05] Willem: is a breakdown, which, what's that? 97, you're, you're giving a series breakdown and 90% and 7%. I'm already curious about the, the remaining 3% ?
[00:06:16] Kalen: No, 93. So 93 7 93 7 is the breakdown. And, um, and, uh, and so yeah, so which is the perfect ratio for a conference. It's the absolute perfect ratio. The [00:06:30] mistake people make is talking business too much.
You want, you wanna limit it to seven to 9% tops. That's, that's my official recommended ratio. So,
[00:06:43] Willem: um, so you go that you're talking to someone in your hatch, you're like, It's 21, 22, 3, 24, 25. Yeah. Check,
[00:06:54] Kalen: stop watching they get, Yeah. I'm like, they could, this, this person just broke [00:07:00] 25%. They don't, they don't realize that I'm never gonna
[00:07:02] Willem: talk to them. I don't like this at all. I don't like this at all. This is not a nice
[00:07:07] Kalen: person. Yeah. They don't realize that I just blocked them on Twitter and LinkedIn in my head, , and the relationship is over, you know?
Uh, no, I was such, it was such a blast. And then I was like, I gotta, I just, I gotta do more of this. So then I was talking to Inacio about, um, , Uh, well, [00:07:30] I was trying to pitch him on MAs chat if I'm being completely honest. And he's like, What are you talking about? You're, you're insane. I've been doing community my entire life and you wanna start this and you want to charge people?
And I said, Listen, what can I do for you? And he's like, I don't know. And I'm like, How's everything going with the conference? Good. Da da da. I go, I'm gonna get you a sponsor. I will, you give me 50 bucks and I am gonna get you a sponsor. So I posted. Then, uh, Walmart [00:08:00] ended up replying a few people replying.
Hopefully that works out on LinkedIn. And then I was, as I was thinking more about it, I said, I gotta go. I gotta go. I don't know. I just think it'll be fun. I got my wife on board, so we're, we're about to buy the plane tickets and, um,
[00:08:18] Willem: that's, I'm on the scene. I'm on the same, uh, scene bandwagon. I'm, uh, I've pitched ID to my wife.
She's, she's gonna come [00:08:30] to moderate. I, I, I fought the event was in Barcelona. Serious before, but serious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna take my wife. If, if we, if I'm coming, then I'm coming together with my wife. Yeah.
[00:08:40] Kalen: What, bro? But not your kids, right? You're gonna, They're, No. Okay. Me and you are having dinner together with the wives.
Just the two of us. Nobody else comes. Just the two of us. Right. Cool. Okay. All right. So, but here's a question I have for you, Okay. [00:09:00] Because mm-hmm. . People are broadening out to other platforms. We're aware of this. Um, the company that acquired, uh, Ignacio does a lot of sales force, right? Which is upmarket.
That's how these things tend to work out. The upmarket people acquire the, the, the down market relative to them. So, um, and I was talking to, to somebody in, uh, um, in the, uh, in the maids chat thing on Friday, who's doing Salesforce stuff, and, and, and they were talking about, uh, some interesting things about, it's a super close [00:09:30] platform, which is a whole other thing.
But what, um, from your perspective, right, as hi as Hiva. Hova, I still can't say Hiva to you with a straight face, despite the fact that you gave me official endorsement to do so.
[00:09:45] Willem: Because you know it deeply inside. I don't mean it,
[00:09:48] Kalen: but I'll, I'll allow it. That's it. That's what it is. That's what it is. Um, the problem with saying Hova is I still don't feel like I'm pronouncing it correctly.
Like [00:10:00] when my wife's name is on Angelica, Right. When people say On Angelica. On Angelica, Yeah. When people say on Angelica, which they do because. They want to try their best to pronounce it as correctly as possible, but they just can't quite vocalize it. Mm-hmm. , I actually don't like it. I would prefer they say energetic.
Yes. Mm-hmm. . So anyways, that's what's going on in the back of my head. Um, so, but here's my question, right, is [00:10:30] that you're Magento or Die, which I, I love, I love that about you and about the vision and about the mission. Um, what's your perspective? Going to a more broadened out conference, right? Are you trying to win
[00:10:48] Willem: people over?
What's that? I'm good. Knives out. Gonna paint my face. .
[00:10:54] Kalen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shank. A few people. But is it more [00:11:00] about, um, is it more about connecting with the Magento people that are there? Is it more about, you know, do you see yourself bringing people over from other platforms? Like what's your, what's your perspective there?
[00:11:16] Willem: Um, it's new. So I, I, I, I can't really tell yet how that will, how to work, work out. Um, I do applaud [00:11:30] that Ignacia was doing this. Um, I think it's a natural thing that we're diversifying. I as a, as a solution provider, uh, um, as a building a product. Um, I choose to work with Magento only, but, um, I think it makes sense for a lot of my customers to have multiple platforms they work with.
Mm-hmm. , so getting as much as possible. As much people as possible in [00:12:00] one place and just talk about commerce and everything around it. Yeah. And, um, have some discussions about when to use which platform is Yeah. Meaningful learn for. Yeah. And, um, I mean, Mag Jensen is just, is still the best platform out there if you wanna self host your code.
Mm-hmm. , I want to have like, the ultimate customization and, uh, it offers a lot [00:12:30] that other platforms don't. It's just we need a little bit more corporate backing, um, for the open source, open source version. Um, and that's something we're working on.
[00:12:40] Kalen: Um, it's the understatement of the century, which I, which, uh, I.
That's just, that's, that's awesome. Um, so,
[00:12:49] Willem: uh, yeah, no, I, that's, yeah. Um, um, I, um, I look forward to seeing all of those people that would not come to a [00:13:00] Magenta event anymore because they made a switch and it's kind of awkward to go to a Magenta event. Mm-hmm. . But, um, I, I can't say I love any of those people less because they switch
[00:13:13] Kalen: hundred percent, a hundred percent.
[00:13:15] Willem: Like, so seeing them back will be like a high school reunion. Yes. Um, and I think an opportunity that I will
[00:13:23] Kalen: take, I think that is a, I'm hearing this from, I heard the same thing from, [00:13:30] uh, from Inacio. And, um, it's the same feeling I have. There's a, there's a nostalgia that we have to connect with people that we were once connected to.
I think there was a time when if somebody left Magento, you felt like you lost somebody. And in a sense you did, in the sense that you weren't gonna see them at the conferences, you weren't gonna be talking about the same things online. You weren't gonna be connected as much, [00:14:00] um, anymore. And like I feel like, um, what I want to sort of do is sort of find ways to connect with each other and we're all solving the very similar problem.
The view storefront guys I'm in love with, and I, you know, Philip Bartek and I know that you, um, did your, your, your webinar with them. You obviously, um, have a ton of respect for what they're doing. There's, they're, they're in a different
[00:14:27] Willem: space. Friends, I consider Philip and B
[00:14:29] Kalen: [00:14:30] Friends, absolutely 1% friends.
That's what it is. And. There are other scenarios where there are people who move to different things or all of a sudden they have different strategic, competitive interests. And then it can sometimes, uh, whatever, it can sometimes make it hard to work together. And that's sometimes a reality of, uh, business and whatever.
But yeah, like, um, and you know, I don't, you know, view storefront is not a, in terms of my business [00:15:00] interests, it's very much on the periphery, but it's something I think is cool and I think they're cool and I just want to hang out with them and stuff like that. So.
[00:15:08] Willem: But I mean, they are platform agnostic, so, so they fit in totally
[00:15:12] Kalen: everywhere.
Um, they do, I believe that they're fairly heavy into commerce tools as far as what their back
[00:15:22] Willem: ends. I mean, the customer base is still 90% Magental because it is the first thing they released. And if you saw from one, [00:15:30] the first version of the product only worked with Magento for the longest time. Mm-hmm.
So they have like, I think literally over 90% of the live stores Oh wow. Are, I don't megento. Okay. Um, but um, yeah, I'm sure that they're, they're focusing on other platforms. I would definitely prefer to have, um, more diversified customers, I guess. Yeah.
[00:15:54] Kalen: Or platform. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's like you said, you know, people, everybody's touching different [00:16:00] platforms in one way.
Or another, um, you know, even, even you, that's Mag Magento only, right? You're inter, you're interfacing with people that are, like you said, you, you know, there's agencies that are customers of yours that touch other platforms and you have relationships. So, um,
[00:16:19] Willem: so that's, I I go to shop where events and people are like, Oh, you're gonna bring Hiva to shop?
Where like, No, not necessarily. And why [00:16:30] are you here? Then it's like, because all my friends are here, , there's a lot of people here that I just like to see. And um, and last weekend I just came back from, uh, the major conference in Cologne in Germany. And, uh, half of the organizers do shop now as well. Uh, Claudia, uh, Claudia works at shop and I discussed like at the end of the event, I said like, Please will do this again next year.
Was like, yeah, it kind of felt like it [00:17:00] would be a conflict of interest, but I feel now during the weekend that it's like it's a good fit. Like we can learn from each other and it doesn't feel strange to be here. So I am, yeah, I hope, I, I hope they will continue to do that. Um,
[00:17:16] Kalen: I think that being friends, it sounds, you know, in a business context, it sounds, uh, uh, it sounds so secondary.
Like it sounds [00:17:30] like, come on guys, we're here to do business. But I think it's a massive part of what makes our, you know, whatever the, the community is, whatever this all is, like I use the phrase as the scattered tribes of the Magento community, whatever the thing is, like it's a big part of it. And it could be, it could be 70% of it, it could be 40% of it.
Like it's, there's something intangible there. [00:18:00] If, if you were to tell somebody, Yeah, I'm going to this, uh, event in Germany where half of the people are doing shop wear and I'm going there just cuz my friends are there, they're gonna go, Come on dude. Like, just come on. What, what's, what's, what are you doing this for?
What's your business interest for doing this for? And you go, No, literally like, it's fun. I like, I want to hang out. We, we'll have some interesting conversations. Yeah, there is, there are some Hi customers there as well. That certainly doesn't hurt, but like, it's, it's just a cool, it's just a cool thing.
Like to me the magic is [00:18:30] in that intersection between work and the personal, the friendship, the networking, the having fun, the dancing sauna on the dance floor, getting get, you know, she's, that was, that was dope. Um, she's such a good dancer and uh, you know, just all of it combined to me is, is what kind of the magic is.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So what are we talking about today, man? We gotta start making some progress through this [00:19:00] dock.
[00:19:01] Willem: Yeah. So, um, I guess we said enough about New Punta New York. I mean, we, we could go on just mentioned, came back from a major conference, which is nice. It's, um, it's this, a very big contrast between and meet magental and conference on conference is very, um, it's, uh, Much more personal, [00:19:30] um, personal connection with people, and it's, it's really, it's like a big coffee break with some improvised talks in between.
[00:19:38] Kalen: Um, I'm dying to go to one of these uncon, I've been fascinated by the, the whole German unconference thing for years now.
[00:19:45] Willem: I think really the German one, the German one really stands out because the, the, the group of people there is just extraordinarily welcome and, and, um, yeah, they've been doing it for such a [00:20:00] long time that it's all, it's very organic.
Yeah. And, uh, I think the concept has been a bit complicated to, to replicate. Um, yeah, I know, I know that the Netherlands has had one or two major conferences and, and it
[00:20:18] Kalen: just has, you don't have to always make it about the Netherlands, man. You really don't , you can
[00:20:23] Willem: just, it had a different atmosphere, Uhhuh.
It was, uh, it was different. [00:20:30] Um, and people were somehow less enthusiastic about it. Mm-hmm. now, uh, yesterday, Itsma was at the end conference in Germany, uh, last weekend because, uh, I think also he has been there before, but, um, he was not there. I think with a, with a extra interest because he's planning on.
A matron conference in the Netherlands next year. In June. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, uh, yeah, he especially wanted to be, uh, in, in this edition, [00:21:00] I guess, to, uh, to see, uh, what, what makes the conference special. Uh, dude, I was,
[00:21:06] Kalen: yeah. I was this close to getting Ysa into maids chat. And then we're, I gotta talk to him because he, I have to, It's a, it's a, the whole thing is a failure if I don't get him involved.
So that, that's a tangent. But, um, I haven't seen him in a long time, man. He's such a, he's such a warm guy. And, uh, obviously
[00:21:27] Willem: doing some, Yeah, it's nice. Uh, [00:21:30] it's nice to see that you can, more or less sense that yes, I has decided to, um, get a little bit closer to his roots and get back into the magenta, like really stepping a bit more firmly back into the mag.
I mean, he's always been in Magental, but he was diversifying a bit. And I think that he's realized that, um, the community can use, uh, the expert tension and like now that this [00:22:00] whole revival is happening, that more can be done in the Netherlands event wise. So, uh, He's stepping up, seeing we can do anything with, um, uh, the Dutch community.
Uh, we have our own, our own Dutch Slack, but, uh, it's currently, uh, unmaintained and, um, I'm familiar. It would be good . It would be good if there's a new, uh, a new initiative that would represent or like would, uh, shepherd the, uh, the Dutch community. [00:22:30] Uh, and yes, uh, uh, he's, uh, he's setting up an academy. He's starting next year, like a Magento Academy, really training junior developers, going to universities, uh, so promoting Magento development at universities.
So that's a really cool thing. And he wants to do more events, um, really magenta specific. Yeah. So, um, yeah, that's a big win. Um,
[00:22:52] Kalen: that's super cool. I. I'm curious to know and I, I mean, I wouldn't have asked about this if he didn't bring it up, but what, cuz [00:23:00] I remember him, I think, I feel like I remember him getting interested in shop wear and maybe doing some trainings or things like that on it.
Mm-hmm. , What, what was the, uh, what exactly, what exactly is, is the shift that you're talking about of going back deeper into Magento? Is it the events things specifically? Or was he not seeing the demand in the shop wear space? Because that's a, that's a common
[00:23:26] Willem: thing of No. Okay. No, I don't think, I think yes, [00:23:30] uh, by nature.
Someone that goes for the underdo and he can shift directions very quickly. Like if everyone goes left and he's like, Well, I'll go right One because it's controversial and I like that, but two. Mm-hmm. , that means, uh, left gets enough attention, I'll give attention to the right. And then when everyone leans back to the right, I'll go back to left.
Yeah. I like that. I like that. And. I think, um, he was just interested in expanding his horizon and doing [00:24:00] the, the, um, the shop training stuff. He recorded the official shop wear training videos, I think. Um, uh, so he did that for shop wear so that they fit into record those, um, from Magento. He's always recorded his own trainings and just saw them as a online training.
Yeah. Um, he did that for HO as well. Um, but that's right. I mean, he hosted Reactant and React training was, um, he's the training [00:24:30] quote. Yeah. Um, and, and he did a lot of front end technology, um, training, but also education with his, uh, his events. Um, so he did PWA trainings, Luma training, few storefront training.
Uh, h that's trainings all all different from them. Yeah. And uh, and React Con was always quite neutral, like, uh, giving enough enough, uh, um, spotlight to all the solutions. [00:25:00] Yeah. And now it feels like he's, he's um, consciously stepping back to really do something for the Magental community specifically.
That's cool to, because that's, yeah, that's what we currently need for, we need the community to start representing Magento as a brand because Adobe refuses to represent the brand Magento right now. And, and I've been talking to them for a year to Adobe people and trying to get them to [00:25:30] clear out that message and, and stop saying Magento is Now Adobe Commerce, which is a false statement, Magento commerce became Adobe commerce, but Magento open source still is magenta open source. So the Magenta France, I
[00:25:43] Kalen: think still. . I think I may have, I think I may have just found my, my clip for this episode. Um, but I, uh, yeah, I, I am, I'm so excited about the [00:26:00] Magento community movement.
I think that there's always been this tension between community and corporate, and it's, you know, it's been sometimes better than others. It's never perfect, and nothing's, nothing's ever perfect, and there's always gonna be things to complain about. But there are times where it can be bad to a point. You know, it's like any relationship, right?
It's never perfect. You're gonna have ups and downs, but there are points at which that downs are so far down that you're not gonna make. a and I'm not saying, um, I really, I [00:26:30] respect what you're doing of, of working together, and I think it's important and I think that ideally we are gonna find a way to work together with Adobe, and I think that's really gonna be better for everybody.
But I, I just like the self-determination, like the, the idea that we can have the self-determination of doing what is right for the community and the customer base and the product ultimately, and that, yeah, we wanna work [00:27:00] together, but we're not, we're gonna go from asking permission to doing the thing and seeing if they want to be on board and that.
So we're doing the things. Yeah,
[00:27:14] Willem: we're doing the things gonna, needs permission. No, I mean, it's like, it's not that. It's not necessarily that we're, we're looking to go against anyone, um, Right, Because that comes with a lot of negativity and fighting against the current. . [00:27:30] It's just senseless. Uh, listen, man, I, I wanna stop, I wanna stop complaining and stay in a, in a negative, uh, totally on these topics and just see wherever we can do, um, what's within our own control.
Yeah, and that's, that's writing, that's building a website that tells merchants what magenta. Yeah. And if no one else does that, we as a community need to build a website to explain merchants what magenta is, what the [00:28:00] features are, what the pros and the benefits are, and how it compares to other platforms, including Adobe commerce on your business.
And if we don't get that messaging from corporate, then, then we do need to have that message because we are selling magenta on a daily basis and we need representation for that brand. Yeah. And we as a community are big enough, wealthy enough, there's enough money going around, so many people working with it.
If we just combine forces and, uh, , [00:28:30] if we just joined forces and take all of the positive aspects and work, work with, with, with, with that spirit, and we do it together, then we can do the sky's the limit. We can build anything
[00:28:44] Kalen: we need. Yeah. Having met you in person for the first time, after God knows how many years, possibly a decade knowing you online, you are so extremely soft spoken, [00:29:00] uh, you know, on video and stuff.
And so, um, uh, in per in person, you, I see that you are very, um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for you. I understand why you're, you are a good, like a good leader and you're very, um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? You know, it's just, it's funny to me, [00:29:30] like, I know it's all genuine, but I just think that you're, you're very mindful of how you communicate and I think you, you communicate really effectively, but like you're, you're much more, um, Sorry, I didn't mean to make this so awkward.
You're, you're very, you're like a strong dude. You're like a, I'm, I know what I want. I'm gonna get it done, type of a guy. And, uh, and so anyway, that was just a weird meta moment. I will say that , [00:30:00]
[00:30:02] Willem: It was definitely weird.
Yeah,
[00:30:03] Kalen: that was weird. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
[00:30:06] Willem: Summarize. It's, summarize what
[00:30:07] Kalen: you just said,
It's like you said that, you've said yourself, I'm a politician. You have said in your own words, you're a politician, right?
[00:30:19] Willem: I mean, I'm on a, I'm on a board of direct board of directors on association, so that, I think that that [00:30:30] means you're doing politics. .
[00:30:32] Kalen: Yeah. 800%. So all I'm saying is that, You're, you're, you're, you're good at what you do. All right. Uh, on the, on the Adobe, I will say, you know, like I said, I have my rants against Adobe and everything like that, but I ran into a bunch of Adobe people in, in New York.
They were fan, they were, it was so cool, man. Like, like, uh, um, oh, oh God, I'm blanking. I wanna say his name's Harrison. Um, the guy does payments and he, he, um, I [00:31:00] ran into him. Super cool guy. Really enjoyed talking to him. He did a, a post afterwards on LinkedIn saying that he really like saying that he had been hearing about this whole Magento community for a long time.
Didn't quite understand what the hell it meant, and that he kind of experienced it for the first time and he kind of like mm-hmm. understood what that magic was about or whatever. And, uh, yeah, man, like I, I, you know, um, I'm doing a meetup here in [00:31:30] Austin in a couple weeks there's probably gonna be some Adobe people, so I.
I, I, I think that, uh, you know, I think it's great. And now some, sometimes your in the interests can be out of alignment and, you know, you gotta figure that out. But we're all just people trying to live our lives and trying to make a buck and, um, and so yeah, man, like we, we'll, we'll figure it out. It doesn't have, there doesn't have to be someone's vi so much vitriol all the time.
Mm-hmm. .
[00:31:58] Willem: Yeah. It's just, it's [00:32:00] really hard to, to convey this, like make them feel what this community is about. And if I tweeted last weekend, Orange is not red. It's just, it's genuinely like that's a great, there's so much emotion and passion in just the quarter orange and the logo and the hexagon and everything that's, Yeah.
[00:32:30] That we've built up in the past 12, 13, 14 years. How much is it? Um, and it's just,
[00:32:37] Kalen: that's what a brand is. It's, it's non-transferrable. It's, That's what a you car transfer. Yeah. That's what a brand is. It's a logo or an image or a thing. It transcends the logo, it transcends that. But the color is a part of it.
It's something that people identify with and love and appreciate and that's what makes a brand that's
[00:32:59] Willem: [00:33:00] almost, that's, it's almost offensive to read Magentas now to a commerce. .
[00:33:06] Kalen: I mean, that's a hundred percent offensive. It should say Magento Commerce. Commerce is now Adobe Commerce. A
[00:33:13] Willem: hundred percent. And that's, that's a fact.
And they could go as far as renaming the open source product, they could have done this. I mean, they could have killed the Magento brand also on the open
[00:33:26] Kalen: source. They would've been within their rights. They would've been within their rights to [00:33:30] do it because they didn't acquire the thing.
[00:33:32] Willem: But we wouldn't, but they didn't, we wouldn't have had a meet Adobe Commerce in New York.
We would've have had, had an, uh, Adobe income last weekend. Um, it, it just, yeah, it's not transferable. We, we don't identify with that color. And that doesn't mean that we're hostile. That doesn't mean we can't work together. Doesn't mean like we cannot be one community
[00:33:57] Kalen: dude. But yeah, [00:34:00] I, at one point in the third iteration of Commerce Hero, I.
Changed my colors to black and red. Partly, partly because of the Adobe thing, and partly because I just kinda liked the colors and I just wanted to do something different. But I'm not gonna lie, when you, It was partly because of the Adobe thing. And I actually, I actually feel guilty about that. Like, not even joking.
I feel in hindsight, I feel weird about that. [00:34:30] Um, but uh, but yeah, so it, the color thing is a funny thing. And, um, you know,
[00:34:37] Willem: these are all, this is hard to explain why this is so important for us, why orange and hexagon are so important for us, and why we need, Yeah. Why we need to have orange socks and marks and t-shirts and Yeah.
[00:34:51] Kalen: And yeah, there's a fanatic, there's such a, there's a fanaticism to the community, which is
[00:34:58] Willem: part of what it's like telling your [00:35:00] church that they need to get rid of the cross and make it a circle.
[00:35:03] Kalen: Right, Right, right, right, right. Hey guys, uh, welcome to church. Uh, we're gonna make some, some tweaks. We, we did get acquired recently by the,
[00:35:12] Willem: um, the book now has a rat the
[00:35:16] Kalen: rat outfit.
We're, uh, you know, we're the crosses. We're keeping, we're keeping them in, but we're just not gonna use them here. You know, you can use them in other contexts. . Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a great example. And these are [00:35:30] religions, like, I, I keep saying these are all mini, like, These groups that we're in are many religions and, and religions can be good and they can be bad.
And
[00:35:40] Willem: the, the, and I wanna stress again that Adobe's doing very good things for the community and for open source. And they, they, right. So there's still investing in that. And they had announcements with Meet Mag Jensen, New York about the right open source contribution thing, and then making the right decisions on the certification expiry.
Right? So if, [00:36:00] if you, if you haven't heard or read, they were about to, um, to, uh, invalidate or like expire all of the existing magenta certifications, um, by this December mm-hmm. and, uh, you would need to do a full, uh, re-exam, uh mm-hmm. recertification, um, to, to keep your license. Yeah. Um, but they, uh, they decided to postpone that to mid next year, [00:36:30] I think to June.
Yeah. And they're going to have like, uh, um, a program to keep your certification up to date without doing a full certification. Yeah. Which is the right thing to do. Like, um, I've, I've always thought like they, they should have either have, have said like, the certification is bound to the Magental version at the time that you take the certification.
So I'm Magental 2.2 certified, [00:37:00] and I can do an up, I could do an update to two four or two five, whatever, when, when new versions come out. Yeah. Or, or like have you, uh, uh, uh, update your license and gladly, they, they now, uh, since have chosen to do that, So, um, there's still a lot of good things coming out of Adobe, uh, for the community.
So I'm, I'm still
[00:37:25] Kalen: grateful. Just like, I mean, a hundred percent. Here's the thing, man. They're investing real [00:37:30] dollars and cents into it. Now. They might, they may not be making all the decisions we want them to make, and we may have things we disagree about. And money isn't everything. It's far from everything, but they're putting real resources, you know, into this thing.
Now, you may say they're doing it because they have to, and they eventually want it to disappear and whatever. You could, you could say that, who knows if that's true or not, but you have to respect the fact that they're putting real dollars into this thing. Um, [00:38:00] which would we'd be worse off if they weren't?
And, um, you know, some people are like, Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Some people get angry. About us. You know, what do you want to call us pro community guys or pro community fanatics? Some people, uh, Philip Jackson get angry that we are complaining cuz we're biting the hand that feeds us. Right? And I know a thing or two about feeding, uh, you know, a child.
And if, and if they're not [00:38:30] grateful for that or if they're complaining, you're like, Dude, like you wanna not eat tonight? What's the deal? You know, , But giving you some insight into my, into my parenting style. But so that's a, that's a reality too. That's a reality too. It's, it's, you know, it's not all black and white and, um,
[00:38:50] Willem: Yeah, I mean, they're, they're dedicated to keeping, keep supporting Magental.
Um, and they have. They have so [00:39:00] much stakes in the platform. They have enterprise customers building huge, huge stores on the monolith to date. Yeah. And they will support them for many more years than they would probably like. Um, Right. There's rumors that are still magenta. One enterprise customers just chugging along.
[00:39:22] Kalen: Oh, I believe that. I
[00:39:23] Willem: believe that a hundred percent. It's, um, they, they will keep doing magenta open source and [00:39:30] supporting it and, and offering PCI compliance for that for long time. It's just that the main product vision is. Is different from that. So, mm-hmm. , it gets love, but it doesn't get the love that you need to make it a innovative product that has like a, a, a roadmap with new features or whatever.
All features will be focused on microservices and, uh, and fit into that cloud offering, right? So, um, [00:40:00] we as a community can fill that gap and, uh, and build our own new features on the platform. And, um, and they're not against that. Like if we have discussions about that, uh, with our leadership, um, through the open source taskforce or, or another forms, then they say, Well, great.
So if something great comes out of MAs, then we can probably take that and put it upstream into the official Magental product. So please go ahead and, uh, and [00:40:30] show us, show us what you can do there.
[00:40:32] Kalen: Let me, let me say that, Let me ask you. Um, why do you have, do you, I think I know the answer to this question and we can get in as much detail as we want, but do you have, is Hava compatible with the, uh, enterprise or whatever the heck they're calling it these days?
Commerce Edition?
[00:40:51] Willem: of the agenda, not a full feature set. So we, we, um, uh, we waited with that until we had full open [00:41:00] source coverage and, uh, and built out a team to the point where we're satisfied with this current state. Mm-hmm. . Um, and, uh, we have, we actually, we have one big release coming up, um, with some, some newer libraries.
So Alpine tailwind are being updated in the upcoming release. And then, um, then we fully shift focus to the commerce features. Now we have plenty Commerce customers, uh, running hifa. [00:41:30] Um, some, some commerce customers don't even use any of the commerce features. They let you just
[00:41:36] Kalen: install open. I was one of those customers.
I was in house with a merchant. We didn't use, I don't, I don't think hardly any of the enterprise features, but you just, people might have, so support license, they want to have indemnity,
[00:41:50] Willem: that kind of stuff. And, uh, yeah, some people like to put it on, uh, Adobe Cloud, which, uh, these days, uh, I have to correct myself.
I've, I've set, [00:42:00] when we talked about Damian's solution, I set, uh, Adobe Cloud still doesn't scale it skills. So, um, that's, that's a great involvement.
[00:42:10] Kalen: Um, I have, I can't let that, I can't let that statement go un unchallenged. What, what do you mean that it scale? That it does true auto
[00:42:17] Willem: scaling. It, it, it does true autoscaling.
That's what eco, uh, meaning
[00:42:22] Kalen: you don't have to email anybody, architect automatically auto scales and down skills.
[00:42:29] Willem: So let's [00:42:30] get ego on the podcast and have him explain all about it. Um, Okay. I just, I just know that he, uh, he sh he responded to a tweet about, um, What was it about again? Um,
[00:42:42] Kalen: I'll
[00:42:43] Willem: ask him. I'll always, They had, they had an announcement.
They had a, a presentation at New York where it showed. Um, uh, performance improvements with, with, uh, 10,000, so a hundred thousands, uh, of orders, uh, in an hour. And someone asked [00:43:00] what the architecture was or what, what, what hosting it was running, and it was running cloud, uh, native clouds from, uh, from a gentle Adobe.
We, um, and,
[00:43:10] Kalen: uh, I would say I, um, I, I got, um, Igor is getting into MA's chat, which I'm really mm-hmm. I'm really excited about. And, uh, so we'll, I'll, we'll, we'll ask him in there, get into some details in there. Yeah. Um,
[00:43:23] Willem: so I know Damien, Good comments. License , they take it for the, for the accountability [00:43:30] for the, to use Adobe Cloud.
And we're, we're all compatible with Adobe Cloud. We have plenty customers running that. Um, but we don't have the full feature set yet. We, we have a public feature matrix, which you can look up, uh, on our website. Um, and, uh, We've, we've been working quite long with Aware Digital HC in, in, uh, in the UK that has been building out the, uh, Adobe Sani live search and product recommendations.
And that's almost [00:44:00] finished, I think. And we got help from the Adobe team there. So we had a couple of calls with them and they're super supportive, um, to help us become compatible with commerce. Um, right. It's just, we're, we're getting started with that whole project to get full future coverage this month.
So, uh, FI's going to start working on that, uh, this week. Um, I'm get started with that later this month, so before the end of the year, I'm expecting to have a lot more, uh, feature
[00:44:29] Kalen: coverage. [00:44:30] Do you think that when you do have, let's call it full, I mean, in some sense, in some sense, like you said, you're already, um, compatible with Commerce Edition.
Um, I still wanna call it enterprise. I hate calling it Commerce Edition,
but
[00:44:47] Willem: whatever. It's the enterprise version of the product. So for me, the makes
[00:44:50] Kalen: most sense. Yeah, it makes more sense to me. I mean, this is all commerce, like what are we talking about? But anyways, um, uh, if so, so in some sense, you, [00:45:00] you, you already are compatible, you've already had, you already have customers, but, mm-hmm.
Let's say that, let's say that, let's say when you got to the point where you had, you know, support for all the features or a lot of the features, right? Do you think that corporate would, um, Endorse Hova, whatever that means. Do you think that they would, do you think that they ultimately see it as a [00:45:30] competitor or do you think that they would, you know, want to push people to it because it's a good product that could, that could, um, support customers, that customers would love?
How do you think they perceive
[00:45:44] Willem: it? So they, they, they currently see more and more demand and they get questions about, about compatibility. Yeah. So, um, it was good to hear in New York, a couple of Adobe people, [00:46:00] uh, and washing hiva one on one. Um, and um, and them seeing that they wanna look into it more closely to offer some level of support.
So that when a question comes that they can properly answer yes or no, it should work or shouldn't work, so they can officially confirm that it's working on cloud. Um, one of the other things that they were interested in was doing some performance tests to see, [00:46:30] um, how well HofA running compared to Luma and maybe even PW Studio, just to have the business case internally so that they can take it into their, um, maybe even into the sales process, but at least from
[00:46:46] Kalen: a support perspective.
[00:46:49] Willem: Yeah, from a support perspective, they're interested in, uh, getting a bit more, uh, hands on because now all the agencies, they build up the knowledge themselves and, [00:47:00] um, Adobe generally has, um, uh, a policy of, um, stopping their support level. Uh, once, uh, once third party extensions can evolve. So if you have any question about third party extension, um, they will say, uh, you have to get support there.
And we don't. So they, they don't really offer support in that. Um, Right. They, they might look into Hiva and give that a little bit [00:47:30] more official endorsement, but, and it will depend how it turns out your question, if they would see this competition, I don't think at all. Um, because currently worse, we are selling commerce licenses.
So people really use Hiva to, I mean, I'm not personally selling, but people are buying enterprise licenses, Adobe Commerce licenses to use hiva on their platform. So, um, I [00:48:00] don't know. Hifa plays a role in the decision process to use Adobe commerce at that stage. Yep. And the more that would happen, the more sense it makes for them to, uh, be positive towards,
[00:48:12] Kalen: By the way, by the way, you, as I'm asking this question, I'm thinking it through.
And the, the truth is that. If they did wanna start to push people to you, they would eventually wanna acquire you. And you cannot, under any circumstances, allow that to happen, [00:48:30] at
[00:48:30] Willem: least for like 10 years. I'm, I'm not too, I'm not too eager. I'm not too eager to, uh, to let that happen. Um, I spoke to people from Gene Commerce
[00:48:41] Kalen: I've, I'm familiar, I'm familiar with the situation on the ground, by the
[00:48:45] Willem: way. No. Had, I think it's such a good, healthy for heva to,
[00:48:49] Kalen: Yeah. Quick shout out to Gene Commerce. I had a fantastic time hanging out with Matt Parkinson. We both
[00:48:57] Willem: had,
[00:48:57] Kalen: I was at the same table. That's right, [00:49:00] that's right. It's funny because you came and sat down and I was like, This is amazing.
I wanna spend the next two hours talking, the four of us. And then I had to go to the bathroom and then I got, uh, involved in another conversation. I didn't come back for like an hour, but, um, I, he's got, I, he's, The British sense of humor is there's just something special about it that, uh, that I love. And, um, anyways, it was a blast.
But yeah, we're [00:49:30] familiar with the, we are familiar with what, what, um, what, uh, the whole blue foot thing. But actually, you know, I have heard, and there was a long time where the page builder thing I think was just the vaporware, It was this odd thing that it was a great product that got converted into vaporware.
But I've heard recently that a lot of people say that page builder is actually pretty, pretty solid. Um, I've heard that from several people. .
[00:49:56] Willem: Yeah. It, it differs. [00:50:00] One person loves it, the other doesn't. Um,
[00:50:03] Kalen: do you guys integrate with Page Builder or do you Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:50:06] Willem: Okay. Okay, cool. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, it's just, it's a bit hard to customize the page builder and build your custom elements for it because it's, it's, it's heavily engineered as, as most thing on things on Magenta front
[00:50:22] Kalen: and are, and by the way, go going.
Sorry, I keep interrupting you man, by the way. Um, going back to the whole [00:50:30] nostalgia community thing, Dave McCauley is gonna be at this meet up next Thursday. Um, he's at Bold, He's a bold commerce now, and so, mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, man, I, I'm just, I'm just pumped about Eric Erway, by the way, who, everybody I talked to recently is like, Dude, I miss Eric, you know?
Mm-hmm. , and, uh, he's gonna be there too. He's at cart.com now. And I guess they do logistics or something. I think they're basically a SAS vendor into [00:51:00] eCommerce, right. So I'm just, Isn't it, doesn't it actually Anton CRI an eCommerce platform? No, no, no. It's not an econ platform. It sound, I honestly, I don't quite understand it.
He told me the web, I don't, uh, he said that what's on the website is a little different from what their primary thing is, but, um, Anton Crill is gonna be there too, which I'm pumped about. He's at.
[00:51:23] Willem: This is literally, if I go to car.com, there's a section in the header that says storefront and it [00:51:30] says build So confusing store with limitless customization.
Honestly, I'll stop here because I'm not here to promote any other platform that mag gentle
[00:51:37] Kalen: logically. I agree. I agree. I want to officially
[00:51:40] Willem: retract. I will Eric some law. Um, he's, everybody loves, he's done so much for us as the
[00:51:47] Kalen: community. Everybody loves Eric. Yeah, I mean, I didn't even realize the extent of it until recently.
when after sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone. Mm-hmm. . And I [00:52:00] think that that was part of it. Like I've, I've been talking to a billion people recently and his name just keeps coming up, you know, because we don't have anything. Don't know what you got until it's gone. That's it. We don't have an Eric Airway current.
We don't have a bed marks and we don't have an Eric or away. Uh, my goal is to be the new bed marks, so we'll see how that goes. We have a few things in the works, but, um,
yeah,
[00:52:23] Willem: we don't, The MA is sticking Eric's place more or less. Um, but, um, [00:52:30] Eric, Eric had. Pre knowledge of the community and the ecosystem.
And uh,
[00:52:37] Kalen: and already he cared. You could tell he cared the product and everything could tell that he cared. Yeah. And he had his own internal stakeholders. He had, I mean, it's not like everything that you wanted to happen, he could make happen. Um, but you just could tell that he cared. Like, and that's not always something [00:53:00] that you get with every point of contact you have at corporate.
It just isn't. And
[00:53:06] Willem: so I think Eric gave a lot more in his role than was asked from him, a hundred percent from his employer. And he really, he really worked for the community
[00:53:16] Kalen: a hundred percent. Um, I mean, and, and again, that doesn't mean that every single thing we wanna do, he was able to get done. I mean, he wasn't the CEO of Adobe or whatever.
He wasn't the chief commerce, he wasn't the Lonnie Stark. But, uh, [00:53:30] he, yeah, you could just tell that he. He cared and he did everything he could. And, uh, yeah. So, so I'm, I'm super pumped about hanging out with him. And, um, yeah, so
[00:53:43] Willem: there's one, one more short topic, which could be potentially a whole episode topic, but, uh, I'd like to just, I'm
[00:53:50] Kalen: over three, three hours today, to be completely honest with you.
I got nothing, but I
[00:53:54] Willem: got nothing else. I can't, I, I can't, but I, I, I'll, I just wanna breach the, the, the [00:54:00] subject and then, um, and then continue the subject later right. When I have more information, but, Okay. Uh, a lot of people might be wondering, uh, there was an announcement at Meet to New York about, um, the, uh, open source contributions that will be managed by the image sense associa.
Mm-hmm. , um, which, uh, currently is the result from the open source task force that we had at ENT [00:54:30] association. Um, and this thing started out a year ago when the task force was, uh, was created and, uh, we started talking about what open source and community needs to, to, uh, make it thriving again and to make contributions, uh, uh, possible again.
Uh, and that ended up, uh, with LT as an svs. That whole plan that then, Uh, never, uh, never saw the [00:55:00] lights because, um, it was just a two big project. Uh, and I've, I've, I've, uh, I've talked about this in a previous episode that, um, Adobe's reasoning was if we, if we don't do one, one, can you still hear me?
Distribution, right? Yeah, I can
[00:55:16] Kalen: hear you. Oh, okay. Sorry. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk to the other room, but I can still hear you and I'll edit this part out. I can still hear you. Sorry. Go ahead.
[00:55:25] Willem: Although his reasoning is, uh, that they, they would rather, [00:55:30] um, manage one code base right, than do it with two.
So t as an SDS was supposed to be, um, one version, uh, that had longtime support, which would be did, uh, the backing for Adobe commerce. And then there would be one community version that was owned by the community and had short term support, which would move a lot fast and allow us to create new features and, uh, and, uh, have [00:56:00] pool request merge much quicker where community would've had a full control.
Um, now in the end that that didn't seem viable, uh, uh, to Adobe. And to be honest, it always looked like a really difficult plan to, uh, to actually execute. Um, so there were a lot of details still missing from that plan. Uh, before, before understanding how viable it was. Um, so now, uh, the newer version or the newer [00:56:30] plan, um, that's been pitched to Adobe and then accepted by the Association, um, is to have like a affording mechanism where the community can fold for which features and pool requests will be merged into the Magental core cos mm-hmm.
right. Um, and, um, yeah, as, as me being part of the, uh, magenta association I'll be involved in, in [00:57:00] how, what shape that should take and how that should be worked out at plan. Um, and there's still a lot of question marks there. Um, but so far what we know is that Adobe is giving, is going to give resources. Uh, to have more pool requests merged, uh, if we prioritize them.
Right. Um, but there's still a lot of questions up in year that are that. that I, um, give to Adobe to [00:57:30] learn what this, what the details, what the nitty gritty details are before we start promoting it. So, um, uh, I'd like to find out like how many resources Adobe's going to commit and, uh, uh, who's going to do the final reviews and doing the merging of pool request.
And, um, are we going to get a certain amount of hours every month that engineers will work on pool requests? Or I heard, I heard, is it going to be like one pool request every month? Because then [00:58:00] it's a bit of a,
[00:58:01] Kalen: I heard and, and I, um, I, there are birdies that talk to me from time to time. It was not you, it was, there were multiple birdies that talk to me and I will sometimes share something that I heard from a, a little birdie and it will.
It's a judgment call, but I will say one of the things I heard was that there's no one internal at Adobe who is [00:58:30] working on Magento itself anymore. It's, um, it's outsourced to some company and everybody essentially internal at Adobe is working on the microservices side of things. Which, if that's true or not, I don't know, but it, but it, I, I could understand the rationale behind it if it were true.
Um, that's the direct future direction of the product. It is what it is. But [00:59:00] that, that's kind of an interesting, kind of an interesting
[00:59:04] Willem: thing. Development. Yeah. Um, What we know is that all of the, the, the commits or the mergers are currently being done by external,
[00:59:14] Kalen: uh, company, but that's publicly available information.
Right on the
[00:59:18] Willem: GitHub. Yeah. You can see that from the commit history. There you go. We have a, there, we have an automated channel and the MAs discord that list all of the commits every day. So you can see what happens on the [00:59:30] magental, the upstream magental code base. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, you can look at all of those requests and, um, they're, they're not being merged by core engineers from Adobe, but that doesn't mean that they're not working on the code base internally.
It's just the main, the open source maintenance on GitHub is not being done by core engineers at this time. Right. And it's, so it's, that doesn't mean they don't have, they don't have developers working internally or Magento anymore, like security performance improvements, like their own development could [01:00:00] still be happening there.
But yeah, the maintaining of, uh, pool request is being done by external
[01:00:05] Kalen: company. Yeah. So we don't, we don't, And, and I mean, you know, if the external company is good, then, then that's okay. You know what I mean? If, you know what I mean? If, if, if they were outsourcing this to like a solid. Agency. Like I would actually think that was kind of cool.
But it did. It depends how, at the end of the day, how, how good that
[01:00:26] Willem: team is. Jordan Jordan
[01:00:27] Kalen: web services. Right? I hear, I hear good things about [01:00:30] Jordan Web Services, um, . I mean, if they were El Genos was doing this, I'd be like, Hey, let's, let's go. I don't believe L Genos is the company on record, but, uh, but so, um, so anyways, it, yeah, it's an interesting development.
If it, if it is true that no one at corporate is working on Magento, right. That if in fact that's true, we don't know if it is or not. . That's sort of an interesting thing. [01:01:00] Development to say the
[01:01:02] Willem: least. Yeah, I mean, in the end, In the end, the important thing is that, uh, that there are resources being spent.
Correct. And for this particular thing, like the community ownership, it's super important for me to know what resources will be available for this. Because if it's not that much, then it's not something I can get particularly enthusiastic about because one pool request every month wouldn't help. [01:01:30] Yeah. If it's, then it's a beginning.
If it's a lot more, then we can really clean ship. Like we can really get rid of a lot of pool requests that have been dormant for two years and outta close with. So some, uh, getter bots, right?
[01:01:46] Kalen: Um, yeah. Well, what's happening now is that we're in a negotiation and the best, you know, the best types of negotiations are collaborative, and you don't, um, when you're in a negotiation, if [01:02:00] you are only asking permission and you're not prepared to walk from the table, you're in, you're not in a very strong position.
And what's changed with major s with everything that's happening is that we're getting to a point where we're prepared to walk. We don't want to, in an ideal scenario, we find a happy medium. But to be completely honest, the, the counterparty can't take you seriously. If you're not prepared to walk and, and so [01:02:30] that's just the nature of the beast.
So
[01:02:32] Willem: there, the thing is, we don't need to walk like we can, we don't need to exactly where we are. We can have, I completely agree, alternative distribution that works in harmony with your official one. Totally agree. I totally agree. And that's, I totally agree. So right now you can just, you can just switch between major s and mag official magenta by changing one line of code in your composer file, right?
Right. It's exactly identical, Right. Uh, a code base and then we'll start working on a different distribution [01:03:00] that will have extra features or performance improvements and all of this stuff. But we'll, we'll take care to make sure that you can still switch between version. Right. Um, and uh, and it means we can stay exactly where we are.
Like total agencies would be able, if a merchant says, I don't need like, the cutting edge, I don't need that version that is maybe 10% faster, but doesn't have official support by Adobe, then they can switch to the, uh, Adobe version. Um, and we can go for
[01:03:29] Kalen: many years [01:03:30] that was beautiful how you just threw that in.
It's maybe 10% faster, but I'm not interested. Um, but yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you that, um, that again, the, the ideal scenario is that we find a happy medium. But it's like you're saying, like it's, the question is, okay, we're talking about per request, we're talking about resources, we're talking about voting about what's gonna get included.
How much are they gonna give us? How much are you gonna, you know, at some point they gotta give [01:04:00] enough, you know, are they gonna give a hundred percent of their resources towards this? No. , are they gonna give 0% of their resources toward this? No. So we, we need to find a happy medium so we can all move forward together in love and joy and friendship.
But you know, it's
[01:04:15] Willem: like you're saying, definitely looking how to, how to help us and how to totally satisfy our needs. Um, and, um, I can't, I can tell them how much is needed to get the community [01:04:30] enthusiastic about this. Exactly. It, that's what it's about. It needs to be quite a substantial amount. I think that's, that's it.
To really get things changing, uh, really get things done there so that people actually start to feel like this process is working with them and not against them. Yeah. So the whole barrier to contribute should be removed and people should. Wowed by the fact that the pool request was merged within a month.
Um, [01:05:00] totally. And hundred, hundred percent and hundred. Then you can build trust, like people will, will change their emotional relationship towards
[01:05:10] Kalen: contribution. A hundred percent. And I mean, we have, we have in the community man, we have smart, you know, extremely, uh, uh, smart and prolific devs that are essentially ready to volunteer their time to do this stuff.
So it's kind of like [01:05:30] you've got an, essentially an unlimited supply of motivated talent to fix all these problems. For you, if you would just now, is it non-trivial for them to sort of allow the community to. Yeah, I don't know exactly where we're at currently in the, in the whole, what levels of permissions does the community have to merge things into core.
But,
[01:05:54] Willem: um, that community maintainers that prep, uh, prep will request, do [01:06:00] reviews, uh, check the code quality and uh, give feedback. Um, but then for every release it's Adobe people. Uh, there's, there's so much work involved with a release, um, that they do internally. Like as soon as they do a freeze on, on, uh, contributions and start prepping a release, they do all of this.
Uh,
[01:06:22] Kalen: there's too much manual work.
[01:06:24] Willem: There's too much manual. Well, they do a lot of, uh, performance tests and, uh, and, and, [01:06:30] uh,
[01:06:30] Kalen: yeah, there's, there's a lot of you guys do performance tests in your automated major os uh, packaging deal.
[01:06:38] Willem: We, um, once we start building our own distributions, that would be an important thing to do.
Yeah.
[01:06:44] Kalen: Yeah. You guys are gonna, I mean, you guys are gonna have that quick and it's gonna be all automated and it could be all GitHub actions and it's, it's gonna be cool. So what they need to ultimately do is, is allow that to make its [01:07:00] way back into the mothership because it's just the right way to do it.
And, um, anyways, so we'll, we'll see how it all shakes out. Yeah. But, um,
[01:07:10] Willem: but yeah, yeah, we'll have more updates on, uh, on the contribution developments. Um, yeah, I should be hearing pretty soon what resources they're making available. And then, um, if that's appealing, then, then we'll be looking for people to get involved with [01:07:30] the task force that you already have going.
Um, now that we know what the real purpose is going to be, if that open source task force. Now we've defined the mission, which is setting up this folding mechanism and, uh, and determining how that, how that right will look in practice. Um, we've kind need people that are very close to the contribution process that perhaps are active maintainers or used to be maintainers and they can get feedback, uh, they can get feedback on, [01:08:00] uh, what we need to have in place in terms of processes, uh, to make it successful.
So we'll be calling for maintainers that wanna make a change, wanna make sure that the community gets the bright. Go into the, the core code base, uh, which pool requests at Ciera. So, um, so yeah, I think it's still an, it's still an exciting, exciting thing that will, will have some form of [01:08:30] control over the code base.
Totally. Um, I, I'm not sure yet what level of excitement totally to
[01:08:36] Kalen: give it. All right. Moving on, Now that we've beat this Dead horse final, final segment and then I'm gonna let you go. This is a new segment of the podcast where we all know that we all know that on Twitter you have to have a tml Twitter name, Okay?
Mm-hmm. , this is something that was started by someone who will Rena [01:09:00] remain nameless, but I have been pushing for this. And what we're gonna do in every episode is we're gonna name somebody who has not yet corrected their Twitter profile today. That's Alexander Galso with, uh, with at Ws. Who, um, I hope we're gonna see in Madrid as well.
We'll see about that. But I'm currently seeing on Twitter that he does not have the HTML in his, in his, in his Twitter name. And that needs to be, that needs to be resolved. So that's a new, that's a new segment. [01:09:30]
[01:09:30] Willem: I, I really love where this whole, uh, Twitter handle thing went, um, started quite trivial, but, uh, it, it really, it elevates my mood when, when I brows Twitter and I see people using the dol.
Yeah. And even if they, if, if they use something else, like do XML, Ord, whatever, it's fun. Um, it's just, it's just a fun, [01:10:00] fun that it's, uh, it's, um, it's connected. People like, Yeah, it's nice. Like you can see this, this is, uh, this is my
[01:10:08] Kalen: people. Yeah, a hundred percent. All right. Well, thank you sir. Thanks. Every,
[01:10:14] Willem: It's free, everybody, and it's, it's free.
It doesn't take anything. You can just go to Twitter and, uh, change your Twitter handle. It's not your handles your
[01:10:22] Kalen: name, right? Your name. Just change your name. Um, it's, it's, it's a requirement. We will be, eventually, [01:10:30] there's a grace period. We will eventually be kicking people out of the community if they don't comply.
So that's, that's a, that's a given, but, um, mm-hmm. . But yeah, get in there and it shows that you care. It shows that you care. So it shows, it shows what team you're on. It shows what religion you're in. It is a religion, and you will be excommunicated, uh, if you break the rules. And we do have a, and we do have a day at the top of it.
Okay, Thanks everybody for tuning in, and we [01:11:00] will see you next week.
[01:11:02] Willem: See you. Thanks for listening.
[01:11:05] Kalen: Ah, let me end the recording. That was fun, man. Yeah, that's quality