In this episode, Kalen sits down with Willem Wigman.

[00:00:00] Kalen: all right, man, should we do the intro? You want to clap? Let’s clap. Like

[00:00:04] Willem: when we just landed the airplane. No, no, no, no, no. Like one, two clap, clap. Let’s clap at the end when we successfully finished it. But, um, Hello. Welcome to ma talk. I’m Kaylin and I’m William. There was a little bit of a pause there, but that’s okay because you’re, you’re. You’re getting, we’re getting our timing, we’re getting our timing. We’re gonna figure it out. We’re gonna get there. Um, and this is got the episode number 2

30, 32,

[00:00:44] Kalen: 232 we’re professionals.

We’ve been doing this for a long time. That’s the road and day to day is today. I never know what date it is or what the date is. So

[00:00:54] Willem: you’re gonna have to it’s 17th of August, 20, 22. And I feel that’s important in a [00:01:00] podcast. I, I always, for the context of what I’m listening to and when something took place, I really like to know the recording date when I listen to a podcast.


[00:01:11] Kalen: I never, um, that’s interesting. I don’t think I’ve ever, I mean, there’s probably been a scenario. I don’t know if I’ve ever yeah. Every once in a while I’ll be listening to a podcast and they’ll happen to mention it, but I don’t think I’ve ever listened to a podcast where they, they, they note like cuz podcasts are sort of supposed to be somewhat.

Not time sensitive,

[00:01:32] Willem: but, um, yeah, but, you know, um, so I just came back from holiday in France. Mm-hmm and I, I drove back home for 12 hours, not straight, like we had two breaks in between and I listened to about 10 Mitch talk episodes all the way from the beginning. That’s so I started with episode one and that’s episode one was rough.

Well, it’s fun to listen to because, uh, the year is, uh, 2014 and it’s [00:02:00] still the eBay days. And, uh, yeah, you, um, uh, you’re still starting your first business coming out of clean. And then, um, uh, in, in about episode six, I think the idea of mate hero comes up mm-hmm and, uh, and you start building mate hero mm-hmm and, um, and you can follow along listening to those episodes, how that defaults into commerce hero.

[00:02:26] Kalen: You’re taking me back, dude, you’re taking me back. I, I swear. I’ve I haven’t been doing day to day development for long enough that I, I, the imposter syndrome kicks up and I go, yeah, I know I was a developer. I did a bunch of open sourced stuff, da da, da, da. But sometimes I honestly sit there and go, do you don’t know anything about development?

I literally tell myself that. And then it, it’s just, it’s funny for you to walk me through all that. Let

[00:02:53] Willem: listen back to those first episodes, because you will find a version of yourself where

[00:02:59] Kalen: a [00:03:00] much pure and better version of myself,

[00:03:03] Willem: where you were creating. Get up modules, open source and talking to core Magento people about Magento, two being invited to, uh, some beta.

Closed beta, uh, panel, whereas zero was invited but denied because he didn’t want to have his open source code put into enterprise. And, and, uh, there’s a lot of technical details that you, you into

[00:03:31] Kalen: there. I was in the nuts and bolts of it, man. Before your time stack overflow, you were just a young, you were just a young pup.

You probably didn’t even have a computer back then. , you know, but I was out there doing it. I wasn’t there doing it, doing thing.

[00:03:48] Willem: I was, I was at 2014. I was doing magenta one stuff. Mostly I stepped into magenta two and, uh, in the first batter version. Um, [00:04:00] but, um, yeah, I don’t know. I’ve been doing magenta for 13 years now.

I think so. Um, oh, wow. Yeah, no. So yout, I wasn’t that much. So things that I missed, um, during that time, I missed a lot of those community things and I, I think I stepped into Mitch talk a bit later because a lot of the things that I listen to now weren’t familiar to me yet. But, um, I had some things that I thought was, were fun to test your, your, uh, your memory on those first

[00:04:27] Kalen: episodes.

Okay. This is gonna be bad, but let’s do it.

[00:04:30] Willem: This sounds fun. You, you, you didn’t have a name for the podcast and the, when you started recording it. Right. But then, right. I think it was about episode three or four that you found the name. Do you know, do you know where the name came from? Ah,

[00:04:44] Kalen: who suggested it.

Oh my God. Um, I know, I think we tweeted about it and I think, oh, I can’t remember. I can’t remember. I can’t [00:05:00] Reddit. You put it on Reddit

[00:05:02] Willem: there a lot of comments. Well, it’s interesting because, because you refer to it as, uh, the Magento RA being a great place. And these days RA is like the most toxic place to, to learn anything on Magento.

Gotcha. I get that now and now, and then, but, um, it’s uh, all the people that burned out over Megento are there. Being negative about it. So I love it space or choose rather not to be, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That’s your support group that you were asking about? Cause you got

[00:05:35] Kalen: no, there, there, really. And this is what I love about you is that there really are a lot of people who have genuinely burnt out on it from different angles.

And I think I was one of the very last I think I held on for quite a while when everybody was looking at other platforms and I was kind of, but at a certain point, I think I started to lose something and what [00:06:00] I, what I love about you and you’re kind of bringing this back out in me. Uh, not just you, but, but you’re part of it is you have this really, um, uh, whatever the opposite of toxic, like you have this really pure, um, pure, I think love for.

The product, the community, the history, the future, all of it, um, which is really, it’s really refreshing. Um, you know, to see that. And also you’re, you’re just, you’re doing well, like a lot, a lot of people who burn out it’s cuz they’re not doing, they’re not doing so well. They’re working on a code base, which for whatever reason is not very fun to work in.

You experienced this more so than anybody you had probably one of the hardest. Burnouts of anybody that I, you know, I remember when you told me about it at the time.

[00:06:54] Willem: And so the second one, especially I, I pulled through the first one without [00:07:00] realizing, and then fell into a much more severe one the second time.

It’s important to record, not to, to, to see when this happens to you and then really pull back and take measures because, um, you can, you can pull through quite a lot, but if you don’t tackle the underlying issues, um, yeah. Then it’s, then it, it cuts deeper like your body, at some point, your body tells you, it stops giving you signs.

It will just shut down. Um, right. I’ve seen people close, just close to me that, um, but a body just literally shuts down. Like they. Over what stress level and, uh, yeah. Wow. Yeah,

[00:07:43] Kalen: no, I’ve never,

[00:07:44] Willem: yeah. That’s I mostly had memory issues. Like I couldn’t remember anything. I, I would be talking to people in just mid-sentence forgot what I was talking about.

Not knowing their name, like people worked with for a client I was working with for four years. And I, [00:08:00] I would forget like all contexts of the discussion and just blank out.

[00:08:05] Kalen: Wow. That’s wow. I had like, I would get at certain points to the point where, um, opening my inbox and to an extent it’s kind of like this.

I have a, I have a very streamlined, I do my email and then I get out. I would be my, when I got ready to check my email, my heart, rate’s going up, I’m anxious. I’m thinking about what bad news is gonna be in there. And, um, it it’s like I would, my body would tense up, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um, all right. Anymore.

Yeah. That’s recognizable.

[00:08:40] Willem: It’s recognizable. Yeah. So what was the alternative name that was suggested what you made fun of those, the episodes? Uh, that’s a really tough one. Probably.

[00:08:50] Kalen: Yeah, this is, I want to say ma chat. That’s the only thing coming to mind cuz people always conflate those two, but I don’t think that was in there.

[00:08:58] Willem: Um, so the most, the [00:09:00] most folks went to match cost and then you made fun of the whole thing that being majors and wizardry and then casting spell. That would be a lot of tangent at dragon

[00:09:11] Kalen: that would’ve been

[00:09:12] Willem: good, but there’s still opportunity there to, uh,

[00:09:17] Kalen: Hey, if we need to, if we need to. Yeah. If we need to rebrand at some point, that’s a good option.

[00:09:23] Willem: yeah. Another, another thing that, that, that was really interesting to me to listen back is that in 2014 already, um, there was a first big wave of, uh, the communities is dying and within a year we won’t have a, a community anymore. Do you remember that?

[00:09:42] Kalen: Gosh. Oh my God. 2014, there

[00:09:45] Willem: was a meet magenta New York conference.

Mm-hmm and there was a presentation by Kurt. Do you know the

[00:09:52] Kalen: nucleus? The nucleus deal? Yeah. So, uh, the center of mass, there’s no center of mass. [00:10:00] Uh,

[00:10:00] Willem: was that the one.

[00:10:03] Kalen: Center center of gravity. There’s no center of gravity in the Magento community, I think.

[00:10:07] Willem: Yeah. Well, there was a, there was a lack of a leader, uh, was said.

And, uh, the funny thing is that that, uh, cur bolt was the person that brought it up. Remember that community stood out, stood up and, uh, um, you, you had Mitch unity. Do

[00:10:24] Kalen: you remember that? Oh, Joshua, Joshua Warren. The, the, the discourse forums. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:10:30] Willem: yeah. And Brent Peterson apparently, uh, put up a slack that I, I can’t find any trace of that.

I could find some things about Mitch unity still, but, uh, but it was funny to me that, uh, eight years ago, um, people were saying in a year Magental no longer will exist and that’s crazy. We had another cycle in the whole community. I. Um, we had a really strong period after that. And then, um, and we’ve come full circle [00:11:00] again and it’s, and, and with what we’re doing today, it’s, it’s very similar to, to what happened then.

Um, and we’re, we’re taking control as a community and the community has always been the driving force behind Magento. Is it, I mean, the community was built by the community. Right. And, um, and, uh, yeah, what’s happening with MAs now is, is really great. Like we see more and more people, uh, getting into getting into a disc and, uh, helping with, uh, the mirror that we’re building, building, uh, quality tools and, and releasing.

Um, we’re, we’re basically reproducing the release. Um, the release builds mechanism that Magento Adobe uses to create new versions of Magento, right? So Magenta’s a mono repo and that’s one get repo and that’s being split up in packages and that’s, uh, capo is being pulled in from outside from third party vendors or, um, [00:12:00] Magento, Adobe, um, multi stock integration.

I is, is also put in from, from different REOs and that’s somehow all tagged into versions and then composer made a package and that’s being released and we’re mimicking that. So we get an exact copy of every release that we can build ourselves. So that’s really interesting. And, and it started with mostly, uh, a fi I working on that and, um, Anton is involved and kissed off from Fuman and, uh, the rat singer.

Um, they’re all, they’re all, uh, working on that, but it was mostly phai building the stuff. And now, um, uh, Daniel SL Daniel SL in Dutch, he joined he’s, he’s going hardcore last week. He’s been doing super, super much work on, on getting, uh, like data integrity check so that, um, the releases that we build are exactly identical to the ones that Adobe releases, [00:13:00] um, and as inconsistencies there, because now we found out that Adobe doesn’t have actual build process, but there’s a lot of manual work involved.

So some way quality of our release the quality of our release system is basically already better that we got a, um, that. The version that we release is more consistent than the one that Adobe is releasing that’s. So now we have to, we have to manually correct things that they, uh, if detect the wrong version of a repository, we need to fix that.

So we have a exact

[00:13:35] Kalen: copy. Oh, that it’s an exact match. And are you guys doing like a, like some kind of a, like some kind of a hash comparison to, to

[00:13:43] Willem: ensure that yeah, so the checks, yeah, exactly. So the check, the check songs need to need to be identical. Uh, that’s how we see that’s how we decode, uh, the way that Adobe’s doing releases.

Um, and, um, yeah, that’s, [00:14:00] that’s pretty cool. So one thing, one thing that is being worked on now is nightly releases. Mm-hmm and that’s, that’s very cool, because just recently there was a bit of, uh, um, there, there was a Twitter conversation about, uh, the release 2 45 that was released just two weeks ago. And then, uh, a lot of Adobe partners or magenta partners didn’t get access to the beta release because apparently that’s only for gold.

Um, and really, um, it looks like they do that because there are also security patches in there and they don’t wanna disclose those patches before they, uh, release it so that they can’t be, uh, exploited in the wild, uh, before the patches come out. Mm-hmm so they, they release 2, 4, 5, and. Um, even, even standard partners don’t have access to that yet, so they can’t test their extensions to the new release.[00:15:00]

And then they have, I don’t know how many days was it? 40, 42, 43. Um, I, I made a note of that here. Well, anyway, that’s, that’s 42 43 days that they have to, um, to then make their extensions compatible with the new release. Otherwise they’re being thrown off the marketplace. So that’s a bit harsh. And the cool thing about MAs is that we’re now creating nightly built.

So that means that at any time you can do a composer install, that’s identical to the upcoming release. So even before Magento to the upcoming, yeah, the upcoming one. Yeah. So you’ll have nightly releases that you can test against. And even before detect upcoming 2 46, you can already test on a MAs distribution.

You can test, test the nightly version and see, uh, if you are compatible with the newest version. So you can already that’s awesome. Prepare for the new version except for the, so they, they will [00:16:00] slip in security fixes last minute. So we, we won’t get to see those until they, they create a release. But, um, yeah, other than that, so that in 2 44, there was, uh, a big issue with PHP, 8.1 support, and that broke a lot of extensions.

They, they were not compatible with 8.1 yet, and then a lot of extensions got thrown out of the marketplace. Mm-hmm um, it’s interesting. Uh, uh, from jets, um, what’s his name again? Um, Robert, Robert Ray, uh, Robert. Yeah. Um, so Robert, uh, Robert ran, he saw that, um, with two for four, um, they kicked out, uh, 35, no, 1600 out of, uh, 3,500 extensions were thrown out of the marketplace because they were not compatible with two for four.

And that had to do with the 8.1 PHP up upgrade. And then, [00:17:00] um, I think two months later, they’re back to, uh, 3,100 mm-hmm so that’s just, uh, 400 that are not compatible yet. But the issue that was also that I N cube is not compatible with 8.1 yet. So anyone that has encrypted their code, uh, if you’re still doing that in two, 2022, um, then you can’t upgrade to.

[00:17:25] Kalen: Is energy still. Are they still the one?

[00:17:28] Willem: Are they still doing? Honestly, I, I don’t know. I don’t know. Um, they used to be one of the, the, the pick ones. Right. But, um, not so much anymore, I guess. Uh, oh, okay. I don’t know if they’re still, if they’re still be going strong. Gotcha. Yeah. So, um, that was interesting.

And, uh, I I’m, I’m curious. I would,

[00:17:49] Kalen: so question, I would question question on the, on the, on the, on the, uh, encrypt code encryption, cuz like Hova, uh, that’s all, that’s all open source and you just, I’m [00:18:00] sure. You’ve probably seen some people copy it or used the wrong. Do you have, have you figured out a nice clean way to, um, you know, protect your intellectual property or are you just kind.

Hoping like things work out.

[00:18:16] Willem: Um, we chose not to put all our energy into a license encryption system and, uh, yeah. And, uh, admin panel and, uh, uh, calling home to, uh, a license server and that kind of stuff, because, um, I think that’s mostly an incentive for other developers to try and hack it. Yeah. Um, if they want, they’ll do that anyway.

[00:18:40] Kalen: And obviously it’s working for you. I mean, I think this is, this is how a lot of open source products work and, and yeah. People could steal it, but they want to support you that the vast majority of the community wants to. Correctly

[00:18:53] Willem: anyways. So, uh, yeah, and as an agency, we’re, we’re mostly dealing with agencies and they’re proud of their work.

They wanna show their [00:19:00] work and display it. Right. And it’s kind of hard to shout about your new Hyva project, if you didn’t buy a license for it. And, um, we have a crawler that, uh, picks up Hiva sites and usually it takes less than a week. Yeah. It takes less than a week for us to find Hoyts. And we, we recollec the new ones that pop up, we check, uh, where they came from and who built it.

And that’s, that’s really,

[00:19:24] Kalen: yeah, that’s a really, that’s a really smart approach that way you have a little bit of a degree of, um, Control or, you know, you can monitor things and if you need to send somebody to break some kneecaps on anybody, just let me know, you know, I’ll, I’ll get on LinkedIn. I’ll send some nasty gifts to, uh, any offenders I’ll, you know, I got you.

[00:19:49] Willem: Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Yeah. Our will forward them to you. And then you can, you can, uh, listen, get a nice kickback on that.

[00:19:56] Kalen: Listen, anybody messes around, got kickback [00:20:00] knee. That’s what I’m talking about, man. Anybody messes around

[00:20:02] Willem: on how, what pay you for each broken kneecap

[00:20:05] Kalen: a hundred percent like maybe 200 bucks, 200 bucks a kneecap or something like that.

Um, sounds reasonable, but yeah. Um, anyway. Yeah, so, so anyway, so that was just kind of a small thing on the code encryption. But yeah, dude, everything you guys are doing, man is it’s, it’s super interesting to see, and I know you guys are still at the mirror stage with ma Joss. Um, and eventually you’re gonna, like, you talked about how you’re gonna eventually pull in things like that, pull request and, and add a layer.

So how’s it gonna work and try to try to explain this to me, like a, like I’m five, but you’ve got the mirror and eventually you’re gonna have a distribution on top of the, on top of the mirror so that you can start to sort of, sort of have some of your own sort of be a bit of a fork or how do you, how do you, uh, classify it?

Exactly. So,

[00:20:59] Willem: yeah, [00:21:00] so, um, We wanna build on top of our mirror and the memo is just there so that, um, we can replicate the release and the release methods that Adobe has so that we know exactly how to build those releases. Uh, just in case sometime in the future, we would need to do that ourselves. Um, and also to learn how to package everything and to do that for our own distribution and our own distribution will be building on top of that.

So we, we intend to remain upstream compatible. So what every update that magenta or Adobe brings out, uh, will keep in sync and we’ll, we will base all our work on top of that. Um, but, um, yeah, the, the, the things that we will do, um, will be, um, In some forms, it’ll be separate modules that we bring out. So I think some things [00:22:00] you can, you can, uh, build as a, as a new extension, uh, if we have new features or alternative ways to, um, uh, do indexing, for example.

Um, but something that, uh, that Damien brought up in the previous, uh, episode, um, is, uh, the performance improvement, uh, the 10% performance improvement that that will just be a patch that we apply to our distribution. And any time that we need to sync upstream with the newer Magental version, we reapply that patch and, um, and well, keep every, it’s basically a rebate every time, as long as that works.

And we don’t deviate too much from the original upstream version. Uh, I think we can do that for quite a long time until we really hit a point where we feel that we can build a much better product. Like the, be the product will be better if we really take a different approach. Right. And, um, um, we’re talking about reducing the balances [00:23:00] between the different modules, um, which is some call it the dependency hell, um, there’s documents going back as far as Alan cans, um, who, who wrote whole, uh, whole documents.

Uh, he was blocking a lot back then about,

[00:23:17] Kalen: uh, Alan Kent days, man.

[00:23:20] Willem: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I missed those. Um, he was, he was super engaged and, um, and um, very much in touch with the community on what the community needed from the product. And that’s something I, I really appreciate. Yeah. Um, yeah. He, um, he, he wrote, he blocked a lot about, uh, how the dependencies between and modules in, in the core, uh, could be reduced.

And that would allow you to make a lightweight version of Magento. And currently you, you, if you start the disabled core extensions, it gets, it breaks pretty fast. And that’s a sign of, [00:24:00] of bad architecture.

[00:24:01] Kalen: Yeah. Right. It was so cool how he had his like blog. I think it was like a, a Tumblr or something. And like, I, I don’t, but he would like, he would, I, he would just all sorts of stuff.

Like he would blog out, like you’re saying architectural things like, Hey, here’s what I’m thinking. And it was just, it was cool that it was just his personal voice. And obviously he was functioning within the structure of everything else at the same time, but it was cool to just get that simultaneously, get that, like that pure just him as a person.

Like, Hey, here’s an idea. Here’s an idea. Here’s an idea. Um, like, I’m a fan of people, you know, being, being themselves. Right. And not having like, obviously within, you know, everything’s gotten more corporate, right. Adobe’s a big company and all, all these kinds of things and people can’t always just say what they think, you know, on Twitter or on a blog or whatever.

And, [00:25:00] you know, I get, I get it, you know what I mean? But, um, that’s just a little aside. I, I miss those, those Alan Kent days.

[00:25:08] Willem: Um, yeah. And of course for the longest time, Ben was our, our entry into Adobe who really understood the community and, and, uh, echoed our voice into the organization, into Adobe. And I think for a long time, they really listened to him and he had a lot of influence.

And I think when that started to drop that’s when he decided, um, To, to go away. Right. And,

[00:25:36] Kalen: uh, do you, yeah. Do you see shop wear as being, are you gonna be, are you gonna be, is who we’re gonna be compatible with shop wear or, uh, pretty soon. Do you see that as an important part of your not future? Okay.

[00:25:49] Willem: No. Um, I personally don’t feel like working with shop wear.

I’ve tried it the day before I built UVA. I tried shop wear for one day and then decided I, [00:26:00] I didn’t wanna work with it because gave it a real much experience.

[00:26:03] Kalen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gave it the real thorough investigative investing. Well, as thorough

[00:26:09] Willem: she can get in the day. Um, but just, it put me off to see an entirely different framework that I was completely unfamiliar with and sure I could learn it and I could probably build side with it, uh, pretty quickly, but it would take me years to feel as comfortable there as I do with Magento.

Um, and I think Magento currently is just. Um, battery equipped. It’s it’s it does a lot more, which I need, uh, which I needed to do. I mean, I, I know it very well. The ecosystem is much bigger. The community’s much bigger. And, um, for me, for me, it’s the platform I wanna work with. And, um, yeah, so, so, um, I wouldn’t say it would be [00:27:00] a, a bad business decision to make Hoover compatible with shop, but, um, it’s maybe someday, maybe someday, uh, that was what you were saying.

Um, yeah. Yeah. Um, you’re kind of, I’m sorry, re friendly. I go to that event and everything, and I have regular contact with Ben and, uh,

[00:27:24] Kalen: you smile and nod you smile and nod, but at the end of the day, you’re expecting him to fail and crash. Horrendously and,

[00:27:33] Willem: um, I don’t expect them to feel, um, I think they will do well, but I think that I’m just kidding.

The, the ecosystem is so big that there’s room for all of, I mean, there’s only two self-hosted eCommerce systems out there right now, in, in my opinion, I don’t count Ws as one because

[00:27:50] Kalen: wow. You know what I’m done with this interview? I will not stand here and allow, I will not stand here and allow WooCommerce to be disrespected on this [00:28:00] podcast, sir.

[00:28:01] Willem: It’s um, It’s a different market, as much as Shopify is a different market. So I don’t and, uh, MOUs has a, a gigantic user base and probably, uh, a hundred times the install base per day, that Magento or shop I have together, but it’s all very much mom and Pop’s uh, and your, your, your nephews building a shop for you on WordPress and WordPress is a blogging system.

And there’s an extension on top of that. That makes it a shop. I hear you and everything is either a user or a post in WordPress. So it doesn’t matter if you are, if you’re a commenter or a, or a customer or a reviewer or a admin, it it’s all in one database table and data alone.

[00:28:52] Kalen: Yes. In keeping in keeping with the ma talk tradition, new segment, new segment, [00:29:00] is it a user or a post.

And then we’ll talk, we’ll talk about different things in the Magento community, Brent Peterson, for example, is he a user or a post, right?

[00:29:12] Willem: He’s he’s a poster user probably. Yeah. He’s a post. Yeah. Shout out to him. I really like, I really like all the content that he puts out. It’s great. I know you’ve done a lot of,

[00:29:24] Kalen: I don’t like any of it to be completely Frank,

[00:29:27] Willem: um, crickets, man, crickets, other than the crickets.

Um, but, uh, no, I also liked the episodes that you did together. Um, you had one recently where you, you talked a bit more, well, you talked only about sports and that was fun to listen to.

[00:29:42] Kalen: Yeah, that was kind of weird. Well, um, yeah man, but, um, but circling back up the, up the thread here, we were talking about Ben.

We were talking about shop wear. Um, we were, oh yeah, you, oh, we were talking about individuals kind of being. Like supportive of [00:30:00] kind of the genuine Magento community. Ben was a big part of that. Ben’s gone now.

[00:30:05] Willem: Yeah. And then we had Eric airway right, right. And, and Eric did a, did a as good as of a job as she could.

You could following up after Ben, he was a hundred percent. He was really solid. Uh, I liked him a lot and uh, of course he wasn’t as embedded into the communities Ben was, but no one will ever be as embedded as Ben was.

[00:30:26] Kalen: Right. And I mean, right. And I mean, for somebody, like I literally learned Magento from Ben, I was in a job.

I hated every night I watched him on the, um, Magento training and, and, and that was my entry. Like I still like, feel like I wanted to talk, do something to a pod with him, but I still get nervous about it cuz I put him on. Pedestal, you know, it’s weird, but, um, but anyways, um, uh, uh, I completely, I completely lost my, I got too vulnerable, like the LinkedIn crying CEO there for a minute, [00:31:00] and then I, and then I completely completely lost my train of thought.

Oh yeah. But Eric, for somebody coming in, without that backstory, he got about as deep as you could possibly get. Um, and I think there was just a lot of genuine empathy there, you know, and

[00:31:16] Willem: I think very little people know how much Eric gave for the community. Like he put in so much energy that no one asked him to.

[00:31:27] Kalen: He met me in the middle of the day to do a podcast in my car. Like, I don’t know if you ever saw that one, but it

[00:31:35] Willem: was a, it was, I did see that. And if I can give you some feedback. No,

[00:31:39] Kalen: no, no, no, no, no, no feedback. It was, it was horrendous. It, the four I’ve experimented with a lot of formats, Willam, I have forgotten more things than most people will ever do in their lives, which is essentially my, my goal.

And it was very random. I’ll think about that and I’ll go, that was super random, but he did it, [00:32:00] you know, he did it like,

[00:32:02] Willem: he’s a cool guy. I know. But I remember listening to that podcast and, and wanting you to follow up on questions. And I think you, um, you avoid conflict, I think very much. And, uh, and going like really asking the rough questions.

I felt a bit like, um, you, you were held back to, uh, this is, you were being super nice to him and there was some, some really tough questions and heavy,

[00:32:28] Kalen: some heavy stuff to talk about. Yeah. I mean, I don’t know, man. I think about this, like I think about how, you know, There were some, a lot of strong critiques from the last, the ma talk with Damien and, and, um, you know, there may be some, some people on the Adobe side that, that listened to that.

And I think like, well, why don’t you, why don’t you? Or why don’t we, I mean, you’ve already been doing this. You’ve been working with Adobe for, you’ve been doing as, as, as much as humanly possible, but it’s like, yeah, you can [00:33:00] talk with, you can, you can, you can have a conversation and you can approach it two ways.

You can approach it as, Hey, this is a human being who’s doing best. They can, I don’t want to be a jerk, you know? Or you can say like, you know, like this is, these are major issues. This is all complete garbage. You’re like, I don’t know. I I’m I’m, I’m not really,

[00:33:22] Willem: oh, I’m not saying you should be, should be unfriendly or, or, or, um, make it personal.

But I think, um,

[00:33:30] Kalen: um, I’m not talking about making it personal. I’m talking about like, you guys don’t at all get at all what this community is about at the most fundamental level. How do you say that? Like, how do you say that in a, in a, in a, in a, um, what’s the word I’m looking for in a diplomatic way? You know what I mean?

[00:33:53] Willem: That is so timely. That is so timely because the whole, all my stuff

[00:33:57] Kalen: is timely, willing. It’s all timely. [00:34:00] The

[00:34:00] Willem: whole thing where the open source task force is. um, uh, what it’s now about. So Eric, Eric was an open source task force for, for those unfamiliar. That’s like a talking group that we have within the magenta association and about 10 community members are on that 10 task force to talk with Adobe and make plans for open source magenta in the future.

And we’ve talked for almost a year about how we can make it easier to contribute to magenta, how pool requests can be easier, uh, uh, accepted and a bit of what you talked about with Damian, uh, on the last episode, um, And it really felt like we made a lot of progress there at some point, Adobe came with the idea of releasing or setting up T as an SES version.

And, um, uh, Eric all say that again, put a lot of setting up saying that Ts a long [00:35:00] time support and a short term support. Oh, okay. Gotcha. And, and idea was so the biggest issue currently for Adobe in the whole contribution, uh, topic is that they have a dependency on magenta open source in their commercial product.

So when, when we do a pool request to magenta open source, um, there’s a whole test suite. There’s several test suites that are being run to test. If that doesn’t break anything in the B2B and in a commerce, uh, products, because those are, those are based on top of open source mm-hmm . Um, and for me as a community member, I don’t often really care about failing tests on B2B.

If I’m not working with B2B. And it’s impossible for me to write a, a working test if I don’t have access to B2B. So as a community member, I wanna create a new feature or do do a, a performance improvement and then a test fill. [00:36:00] And I’m unable to fix that test. And then it’s never merged. So, so for Adobe, this is, this is an, uh, this is expensive because they need to be put people on that to write those tests and make it work with B2B.

So before they can put something into open source, it also needs to work with the other versions. So in some way, having a SDS version that. Um, is community owned. That was the ID. So the community is able to do pool requests and merges there, and Adobe would see whatever happens there. That’s interesting to them.

They would make an effort to put that in the LTS version and the LTS would be, uh, would only get, uh, a new release. Let’s say once a year and the STS version, whenever the community feels like it. So, um,

[00:36:50] Kalen: it sounds, uh, it sounds super, super confusing, but, but obviously you understand all of these issues at a much deeper level.

And I, and I, and I really [00:37:00] appreciate the way that you simultaneously are willing to be independent, are willing to say whatever you think you’re not, you’re not, you know, a lot of people are, are, are tied down by partnership agreements. And yet at the same time, you, you work so hard to try to make. Work with the, the mothership and if, and we do.

And, uh, and so I, I, I think whatever you’re doing is great. Um, it’s that, that whole LTS, that sounds like a weird bandaid, but I, I, I’m not close enough to really understand it very well.


[00:37:32] Willem: the, the, um, it happens in a lot of other, uh, open source platforms and, and, okay. How many distributions does Linux have?

Um, 70 and Linux has Buntu has LTS versions and short term support versions. Okay. Well

[00:37:47] Kalen: then that’s awesome. No, that’s cool.

[00:37:48] Willem: That’s cool. But, um, yeah, so, so, uh, just yesterday we had a meeting,

[00:37:53] Kalen: um, because my, sorry to interrupt. I was just thinking like that to me, what seems like the straightforward approach is that you’ve got the open source [00:38:00] layer.

You’ve got tests and stuff that run there. Boom, great. Then you’ve got these other layers, B2B, whatever. Right. Have they should have their own test suites. So if you’re just committing here. you should like you shouldn’t that, that, that’s a weird, that’s a weird sort of dependency. It feels like to me. Uh, so that’s, that’s

[00:38:20] Willem: constant reason problem.

That will be a constant problem for them because they would constantly need to keep up with the open source version and that commercial product will be breaking with new features or, or, or things that we merge into open source that they don’t even really care that much about. And I think that’s, that’s the, that’s the bigger picker picture issue.

Um, Adobe doesn’t necessarily need much innovation on open source anymore because it’s a dependency for their micro architecture and they’re building this whole landscape around it, of microservices mm-hmm and Magenta’s just one of those microservices, um, that they [00:39:00] keep for backward compatibility. And for people that are used to working with Magento, they can use that and also use these other Adobe services that are put on top of that.

So the thing that they are best served by is magenta not changing too much, because that has a lot of effect on the other products. And they’ve already said that they’re not going to create new features on the magenta monolith on the PHP application. Any new feature that they are building will be an Adobe service.

right. Right. So if we go ahead and say, well, let’s put in this new feature, uh, for a whole new product type. They, they don’t, they don’t really need that. And it’s a big cost for them. It’s just not, it’s not

[00:39:46] Kalen: aligned. Allow us to do that. Yeah. It’s just not aligned with their interests, with the direction their commercial suite is going and, and that’s, that’s that’s okay.

That’s, you know, that’s

[00:39:56] Willem: the, the, the good thing that we have now is that [00:40:00] we know that they are, um, that they’re going to support the monolith, the PHP application for years and years. That’s something that. That they’ve given us that we know now, like there’s a roadmap and there’s not a lot of on that roadmap, but at least we know that in terms of like

[00:40:17] Kalen: basic security.

Okay. Okay. Right, right.

[00:40:20] Willem: Yeah. So they keep it support. Uh, they, they support it. They keep it PCI compliant. They keep it secure and fast. And, and so this is a platform that you can keep building on and relying on for years, which is great for us because if we wanna have an innovative product, that’s based on that, and we just create a different distribution on that within the community, we still have the vendor support from Adobe.

Putting security fixes in there. Right. And they have a buck bounty pro program and everything, and they have a lot of big commercial interest in keeping that secure and up to date. And then if we feel like doing fancy stuff and putting a new front end on top of it [00:41:00] or whatever, we can do that within a community.

So I think we’re still, we’re still going to get what we want. Um, it’s. It’s a lot of figuring out what form it’s going to have. And we were really hopeful of being able to do this within the Minia association. Right? So within MAs, we were, were very open to collaborating with the magenta association and with Adobe, but now it looks like we had a, a last meeting was yesterday with the open source task force.

And, uh, we know now that, uh, Magento SDS is not going to happen. So it will be just LTS. Um, Adobe is really trying to see together with us, how we can improve, uh, the pool request situation and, and allow better maintenance and contributions to open source. But I think if we wanna see innovation and really own a version of that product, that’s something that will take place in the community.

And I think that’s fantastic in itself. Like the community owning a [00:42:00] version of the product is, um, that’s how open source should be. .

[00:42:05] Kalen: Yeah, I like it. I like it. What’s up. What’s next on the doc, man, you put together the most impressive doc and the history of, of the ma talk doc. So we want to get

[00:42:17] Willem: into it.

Well, yeah, so we have, we have quite some content that we might even spread out over multiple episodes. Right. So we can see what we can and cannot, uh, fit into this one. But how, how much time do you figure, uh, are we at 30, 40 minutes? Maybe? I don’t know. Uh,

[00:42:36] Kalen: I’m not, I I’m, I try not to look at the time, so I’m not looking at it.

Okay. And, uh,

[00:42:41] Willem: so we just, we, okay. We just go on until we don’t feel like we, I

[00:42:44] Kalen: don’t know what the date is. I don’t know what the time is. I know I have coffee and I have the God king here with me live. So let’s, let’s, let’s get into it, man, by the way, quick update. This is a, this is an amendment to the bylaws.

I don’t know if you have it in frame, but every [00:43:00] Magento community member is to have a picture. Do you see that in the frame? Oh man. Every member is to post a picture. Oh. And we’re gonna pay tribute during morning standup. Okay. So that’s just a quick update, but what’s what’s next. Next I’m

[00:43:17] Willem: gonna have t-shirts with your face on it.

[00:43:21] Kalen: You actually do have a t-shirt on face.

[00:43:23] Willem: Yeah, I do. I do so cool.

[00:43:26] Kalen: So what’s what’s next?

[00:43:30] Willem: How do you feel about the ban that we, that we exchange on Twitter? I feel a lot of people are, are not getting all of our jokes really.

[00:43:40] Kalen: Oh man. Um, I don’t, so I’m, I’m in this weird phase where I’m like doing a lot of like SI like, like purposefully funny.

Social media posts and, and, and some people honestly don’t know, what’s a joke and what’s not a [00:44:00] joke. And, um, I’m kind of just, I don’t know, man, I, it’s just, it’s something that I’m just doing because I think it’s,

[00:44:08] Willem: you know, what crack me up, you know, crack me up. So you are now automating your tweets through our table, right?

So imagine you have an Excel sheet an our table, like our table, table. Yeah. Uh, with tweets that you wanna tweet out. And at some point this week, there was a tweet that said undefined record or unknown record . And honestly, I saw the tweets and I, I was do nobody

[00:44:33] Kalen: knew

[00:44:33] Willem: it was amazing. We don’t even know like, is this, is this the tweets or is this an error?

And then I heard it. It was actually. You had a, you had a mistake in your table and we don’t even, we don’t even recognize anymore. What’s what’s a tweet or what isn’t. So it’s so funny. You’ve reached a peak peak confusion.

[00:44:52] Kalen: yeah, I know. I mean, honestly, like I was, I was, um, I was, everybody’s all hot and bothered about the [00:45:00] scheduling.

I was gonna either just tweet. Cause what I, what I’m, what I’m doing is I, I sort of have been trying to write different things and then I’ll, and then I’ll queue them up. But I was either gonna just post them all in, in one go. I was like, that’s we? That would be, that would make too much sense. So then I just figured I should schedule ’em out, but maybe I should, they’re like every three hours.

So it’s like eight per day. Maybe that’s too much. Maybe I should do less. I don’t know. But, um, I don’t know, man. I’m just kind of putting my own like little creativity out into the world and um, you

[00:45:32] Willem: know, hopefully, so will you bundle them

[00:45:33] Kalen: in a book? Yeah. That’s you know, you never know, maybe a little coffee table, get some illustrations or something.

but, um, coffee

[00:45:42] Willem: table, but no, I don’t, you know, the Seinfeld Seinfeld coffee table book.

[00:45:48] Kalen: Oh, that sounds vaguely familiar. Uh, is that, was that an episode from, was that a Seinfeld episode?

[00:45:54] Willem: Uh it’s it goes on for many episodes. Uh okay. Kramer, [00:46:00] Kramer and asset ID and they won’t publish it. Um, at the, uh, the publisher of, uh, I don’t know, the female character’s name.

Um, Elaine I’ve watch which Elaine. Elaine. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:46:12] Kalen: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to sit down and watch every single episode. Um, I need a binge Seinfeld.

[00:46:19] Willem: I am, I am binging that now during dishes, when I don’t have a P podcast to listen to I oh, nice watch. Because the cool thing is it’s so old that it’s really slow paced and you can almost listen to it without watching the screen.

Yeah. So I just, I have my wireless app. Uh, my airport is airport’s in and I walk through the house, listening to Seinfeld and sometimes I’ll watch a bit, but mostly I just listen. Um, and, uh, it’s, it’s relaxing because it’s all, you know, how TV series were back then. Um, it’s slow paced. Yeah, yeah. Today you really need to, like, you need to CA capture every image of a series, not to miss anything because it’s action.

Action. Action. [00:47:00]

[00:47:00] Kalen: Right, right, right, right. But yeah, no, I, I, I it’s all love for everybody. I’m just kind of, I’m just sort of, it’s my own little creative outlet to be kind of what I think is funny. And it’s funny

[00:47:13] Willem: put up a, put up a GoFundMe and, uh, I’ll finish

[00:47:16] Kalen: your book. So actually, I, I, um, I’ve been thinking a lot about my next thing.

I think I’m, I think I’m going to start to ramp down commerce hero. I talked about this a little bit. I think on the last episode, but I’ve been thinking a lot about what I’m gonna do next and I, and this is kind of, kind of related. Um, but I, I, I think I’m gonna do like a paid com like a private community.

Um, and, um, it’s, it’s very like, I’m, this is like day, day six. Like I woke up whatever it was six days ago, 3:00 AM. And I was like, I gotta, I, it’s something I’ve been thinking about for a few years, but I was like, I gotta, I gotta just do something new. And so, um, I’ve kind of, I’ve thought a lot about this idea of.

You [00:48:00] know, therapist for developers or something and, and what I, um, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a little bit the flip side of what I’ve done with commerce hero with, Hey, you’re not happy with your job. Let’s get you a new job. That’s one way to solve the problem that can work great. In a lot of scenarios. The other approach is let’s help you to be happier and more productive in your career, your life, da, da, da, all that kind of stuff.

So I think what I want to do, uh, actually I started doing this yesterday. I I’m gonna, I’m gonna do like a private community and, and I think I’m gonna do like coaching, which when I say that out loud, it sounds very cheesy. Um, and I’m still not entirely comfortable with it, but basically like, um, I don’t know.

So, so when you mentioned like the GoFundMe or whatever, like, I, I really, I basically want to get people to kind. Support me as a creator, uh, whether that’s through a private community or coaching, whatever, so that I can, you know, just [00:49:00] kind of help people be more, be happier and more productive in their, in their work and in their lives and stuff.

How cheesy does that all sound to you on a scale from one to 10?

[00:49:11] Willem: Not cheesy. I think, I think it’s a very serious topic talking about it is. Yeah. Um, Um, so that’s, that’s from all people. I’m not one to joke about that. Um, if I may give you a piece of advice, I wouldn’t shut down Cobas hero before starting something new.

Sounds like you have something good going, which is four hours of work a week. Well , which is probably a joke, but, uh, I mean you have, but actually you have a business

[00:49:43] Kalen: on, and it’s not that I’m, and it’s not that I’m gonna shut it down immediately. Anything like that, I’m gonna continue to basically with commerce here, I, I, over the last several years, I go in and out of, you know, actively being active in terms of recruiting, looking for developers, looking for clients.

And then, and then I do that for a little bit [00:50:00] and then some contracts fire up. And then I go into more of a passive mode where I’m answering emails and things like that. But it’s, it’s, it’s more passive. And so it’s not that I’m gonna shut everything down, anything like that. I have, I have stuff that’s ongoing that I’m gonna continue to.

You know, uh, maintain. Um, but I just, I need to do something new and, and, um, yeah.

[00:50:22] Willem: Find something that you’re passionate about.

[00:50:24] Kalen: Yeah. And, and part of the re yeah. And, and I think, you know, what’s interesting is part of the reason why I said, I think I needed to get over this mental hurdle of, um, uh, deciding it’s okay to ramp down commerce hero nothing’s been done.

I mean, nothing, you know, but I think that was a mental hurdle for me. And, and the first, my first approach to the idea of developer coaching was that the agency would, would pay me. So I heard this podcast about how Shopify hired a bunch of business coaches. And I think that was part of it. And that the agency would pay me to coach their [00:51:00] team.

So then I thought, well, if that’s gonna happen commerce hero, the recruiting side can’t exist because they can’t trust me if, if I’m, if I’m, if I’m actively doing recruiting, but then. Um, the next idea I got to, and I hope this is not too sell promotionally. I’ll try to get it. Uh, this is also in keeping with the main stock.

First phones will break. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. But, um, but, uh, but, but, um, but so then from there I went, you know, I really want to go directly to the individual developers because if the, if, if the agency’s paying for. They’re kind of the customer at the end of the day, and you can’t, there’s certain topics you wouldn’t want to talk to, which I may go that direction.

There may be a way to do that, but it’s sort of more pure. And this is where you were joking about the, the GoFundMe. There’s something very pure about being supported by a community, um, of, of, of people, right? Like, I, I, I [00:52:00] love what I do with commerce hero. I’m very, I, I got a message the other day from somebody who said the job changed their life.

It makes me very happy, but you know, the, the, the, the, the business is the customer. You know what I mean? And so like, there’s something to me, very pure about, like the, if, if I could have this community of developers and other people in, in e-commerce tech, whatever, and, and help them directly, how can I directly help you?

And I’ve lived it right. I’ve lived the burnout. I’ve lived the being frustrated as a developer, not knowing how to improve it. Um, and, and, and I, and I joke about, I joke about a lot of stuff. Right. I think it, I think that, you know, you’re kind of better off going through life with a smile on your face, joking, but there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of pain.

There’s a lot of, um, there’s a lot of, uh, depression, despair, like, like there’s a lot of that and I’ve, I’ve gone through a lot of that. Um, and, uh, and so it’s something I, it’s something that’s like [00:53:00] very deeply meaningful to me. Um, I think that I’ve been in the past several years, I’ve been trying to. Go deeper and get to a deeper, what, what do I really, what do I really want to do in this world?

What, what, what really matters to me and stuff like that. I still need to do some work. I mean, if I didn’t have to do any work at all, I might be doing something different. But, but yeah. So, um, so

[00:53:22] Willem: maybe, maybe you can start with looking into some, some way to get licensed as a practitioner, uh, kind of a coaching.

I think that, that, that might make it really concrete, like going into like the, the processes that you can, I think, I think talking to people about giving people advice, a lot of responsibility that you’re taking into your hands. Yeah. And that, I think you should quit your job, just quit your job and, and move, move to Costa Rica.


[00:53:57] Kalen: right, right, right, right. No, I know. And I, and that [00:54:00] makes me nervous. And, and you could, you could work with somebody, you could do your best job and they could be a little unstable and, you know, things could go south. And, and that makes me, that makes me kind of, uh, nervous, you know, I have this habit of getting into business models.

I know absolutely nothing about, but I kind of go like, oh, I think, I think there’s something I could do here. I didn’t know anything about recruiting or whatever. I just, I got into it and I don’t know anything about coaching. It still sounds really, I have it. Yeah,

[00:54:28] Willem: I have it. I have it. Okay. You should be the new doctor, Phil, but then online for developers just live.

I mean, you’re live streaming your whole life already. Yeah. Every conversation you have turns up either on TikTok or Twitter or YouTube. Yeah. Make it, make it the live stream therapy. Yeah, I

[00:54:46] Kalen: think so. I think that could be interesting. I mean, um, although yeah, I, I don’t think people would want to talk too deeply about some people would, some people would, but, um, but, uh, yeah, [00:55:00] man, so that’s kind of what, I’m sorry.

That’s kind of what I’m what’s

[00:55:02] Willem: that I said, sorry, because I’m, I’m not trying to make a joke out of the decisions to no, no, no

[00:55:08] Kalen: jokes are good. Jokes are good. I like jokes, little taste, taste of my own taste of my own medicine. Okay. Next.

[00:55:17] Willem: Shall we get to the program? Yeah. Um,

Yeah, let’s let’s, uh, let, let’s do a round of events that are coming up. Are you feel about that? Okay.

[00:55:30] Kalen: Like I said, we’ve mentioned we’ve got a major, you got a major list. I don’t know how we’re gonna go through this without somebody falling asleep, but let’s, let’s give it a shot. What’s going on with New York

[00:55:39] Willem: to start wrapping.

I’m going to wrap from here. So it goes faster. Okay. No. Okay.

[00:55:44] Kalen: Lot of people, I

[00:55:45] Willem: excited time. Mm-hmm I think by the time, uh, already today, uh, most people that are planning to go to meet magenta, Singapore would already have a ticket and, and, uh, made plans, but that’s coming up on 25th August, uh, [00:56:00] organized by rhino assist.

But, um, yeah, I think great that, that meet magenta events are still, how

[00:56:06] Kalen: big is the Singapore? Do you know how big the Singapore event is?

[00:56:11] Willem: I. I don’t know. I don’t know, but I think curious what’s, what’s really cool that, and the, and the Asian region, uh, a lot of meat Magentos are, uh, are back this year. And I think Europe and, and us they’ve been holding back a little bit more, but, um, uh, Indonesia has been last week, I think, with IIA mm-hmm and Singapore’s just coming up mm-hmm and of course we have, um, New York mm-hmm , um, that’s coming up on September 23rd and, uh, I’m going to be there and maybe Damien is going to be there.

And, uh, but

[00:56:51] Kalen: Damien said that if you and van NIGO, he’s going, and I said, you’re going for sure. I don’t know if Vena’s going.

[00:56:58] Willem: Fi I won’t fi I won’t [00:57:00] fly that much anymore. Uh, okay. Which, which I also feel like I’m a bit held back with doing a lot of long distance flights or any flies actually, because we’re just, we’re screwing up nature.

Um, but, um, yeah, I’m, I’m going to do my, in my defense. I, uh, I haven’t flown that much yet in my lifetime, and I know fi and I, he’s no band marks, but he’s got a lot of miles on his wings. I, um, I’m gonna be there together with, uh, with our new, uh, sales, sales director, commercial director who yeah. Will start on September 1st.

Um, and, um, I think Chilan from one step checkout is coming. Damien is, uh, uh, is I think he’s seriously considering, and I think if he’s coming, then you should also come.

[00:57:54] Kalen: I I’m I’m cont I’m continu. What’s the date. Anyways. I, I honestly all this 23rd

[00:57:58] Willem: of September, [00:58:00]

[00:58:00] Kalen: 23rd of September. Did we move it to Austin?

Is it too late?

[00:58:08] Willem: I booked my tickets. I booked my tickets. I booked the sponsorship. We’re a silver sponsor with Hova. That’s that’s awesome. I think it’s gonna be great. Yeah, I’m excited. I’m excited very much. Um, just before that, at the end of this month, we have, uh, uh, a webinar that we’re hosting at the mag association, um, about, um, the Ecommerces landscape in 2022.

Um, That’s an August 30, um, and it’s perhaps quite unexpected for people, but I’m doing, um, I got that idea together with, um, uh, Philip OWK from a few storefront because we felt that, um, there’s just too much confusion around PWAs, single page applications, multipage applications. I love it. Yeah. Um, uh, composable [00:59:00] commerce and, and all those terms that, um, I think many agency, agency owners already, um, have a hard time making choices there, what front end to use and what systems, um, and we have, so we have decided to put up, uh, uh, a seminar or webinar and, um, Philip and I are going to try not to steer the direction of the conversation.

Uh, it’ll be a discussion between, uh, Luke Collymore uh, Jisse Reitsma and, Christian Munch and those are all people that on a daily basis, um, make decisions or, um, decide between, um, hatless and, and multipage applications to do’s awesome. Do not use hatless and, um, uh, that’s awesome. They have this whole workflows in their companies to help a merchant decide between the different tech technology stacks.

This might be not

[00:59:58] Kalen: to be, this might be [01:00:00] the very fir cause there’s so be so many talks on head list, blah, blah, Peter. This might be the first one where people who actually understand what this is all about can just get right to it. Cuz like Christian, Christian, Mon she doesn’t, he’s not, he doesn’t screw around.

Like he means, you know what I mean? He’s he’s, he’s a technical guy. He’s the OG. He’s the OG. I freaking love that guy. I love that. He’s theit run guy.

[01:00:25] Willem: Yeah, he did. He’s DEIT run man. He’s doing major

[01:00:29] Kalen: Metron yeah. Sorry. I thought about, I thought about the actual runs. That’s that’s how stupid I’ve become.

Yeah, no, I, I did some contributions to major run back in the day. I used

[01:00:39] Willem: to use that. I know, I know I listened to the early podcasts and, uh, nice let is actually in one of the first episodes is being interviewed on meet, meet magenta, Germany 2014, and then he just released matron. And I think it’s fantastic that till today, I think one or two weeks ago, there was the last release of matron and he keeps it up to date [01:01:00] all those years.

Amazing. Um, I think it’s one of the biggest contributions to the community. I’m

[01:01:05] Kalen: curious, um, is cuz one of the things I thought I know that mag, I believe magenta two has a command line tool baked into it. Mm-hmm mm-hmm is major runs still. So, so if he’s continu to maintain it, I’d imagine that it it’s, it must have some functionality on top of what the core does or he

[01:01:23] Willem: they’re they’re complimentary.

Yeah. They, they work well together. Uh, nice. I think on a daily basis you would use the, the standard, uh, bin Magento CLI commands from Magento. Um, but matron has a lot of nice utilities like database console console, and a way to drop database tables, um, really, um, excluding, uh, customer data. So you can very easily create export, uh, in your, in your continuous deployments.

You could create a database dump, but it doesn’t include privacy center, uh, sensitive information. All those kind things. And he, he put in some [01:02:00] Hiva commands a few months ago. Oh, nice. That’s really cool. Yeah.

[01:02:04] Kalen: Yeah. It’s a great like MI it’s a, I just, sorry, sorry. It’s just, it’s a great microcosm of how the community and the core should function together where the community innovates, the core can pull in the things that make sense.

And then they community can continue to obviously command line is a very limited and sort of easy to decouple thing, but the community can continue to do its own innovation and, and innovate quickly on things like that. Like the core is never gonna have a hi of a command even though they should. Um, uh, and then they can just kind of function together in concert.


[01:02:37] Willem: Yeah. And, and, and the cool thing about the seminar or the webinar is that, um, it’s not a, it’s not a, a platform comparison, so it’s not going to be about few storefronts or Hiva or PW studio. It’s just purely, um, explaining the technologies. And when it makes sense, To choose for a certain technology and [01:03:00] explaining how it’s very black and white currently.

Like they say, you either go hatless and, and with micro service architecture or, or you go with a monolith and there’s so many different flavors, you can have a monolith with, uh, with, uh, Luma front end with, if you saw front, front end in a different store view, and you could be having all these microservices that you use in combination with that.

And that’s a mix of all those terms that are being used. And it’s not, it’s not either the one or the other, and it really depends on the project and the budget and, uh, right. The customer. Do they have a whole team of developers in house that can build a helpless application and maintain it? Right.

Fantastic. Then maybe have an agency that does the backend work and, uh, your in-house team builds, uh, your react fraud. uh, independently. So, um, if it makes sense, it makes sense. But now it’s, there’s a lot of marketing and it just only shouts loudly that hatless is the [01:04:00] future, or you should always go hatless and that’s, that’s just not how

[01:04:03] Kalen: it is.

Right? Totally.

[01:04:06] Willem: So I’m, yeah, I’m really looking forward to that. Um, that’s the third of our August. Um, there’s a mid on conference coming up in Germany. Uh, the guys from guys and girls from fire Geno have been doing that for a long, long time. Obviously we haven’t had one for two years, but uh, this year they’re back.

Um, and that starts on, on, got out to fire. Do you have a two. yeah, they, they have a two day hackathon starting at the 29th of September and then the 30th. Um, and then the first and 2nd of September, the actual on conferences mm-hmm . Um, and for those that are not familiar with the onference, the people attending make the program and you vote on topics.

So everyone puts topics on the board in the morning and then you vote. And then what gets most interest is being talked [01:05:00] about. And those are a lot of ad hoc, um, improvised talks, just things that you you’ve been working on lately. It was the very first time that I did public speaking about, um, performance optimization.

I think JavaScript bonding for Luma. I did that at matron conference and it’s very, um, Very easy way to get into public speaking. So, uh, and it’s very personal, usually not too many people. Um, so yeah, I, those are some of the best events on conferences.

[01:05:31] Kalen: Yeah, that’s cool, man. I, um, I’ve always, really, really loved the concept of, of the on conference.

And I’ve been hearing about these now for, for years and, um, and uh, I’ve never been to one, man. We should do one in Austin. That’d

[01:05:45] Willem: be kind of fun. Brent brand did one, uh, in Florida, in, in Florida, which is hard for me to attend, unfortunately. Um, but he, he made it a bit wider and not just magenta, I think.

Yeah. Which is the eCommerce, uh, [01:06:00] conference, which I think had a, of,

[01:06:02] Kalen: of big commerce probably had a whole bunch of big commerce people there.

[01:06:08] Willem: yeah. Um, So I would, yeah. Uh, conferences are pretty cool. I think they, they come from the Silicon valley. They originally, those were bar camps, I think. Oh, I didn’t realize that. Um, so conferences is pretty much the same as a, as a bar camp. Um, okay. And, um, talking about more universal conferences, uh, our body Ignacio, uh, from interactive four together together with Cuba from snow dock are putting up a whole new set of conferences that are, uh, platform agnostic.

So they are just, ah, interesting eCommerce conferences and they call it meet commerce, uh, with double E not E a T . It’s not a meat convention. Um, but it’s a it’s meat, commerce, and, um, uh, it’s it’s [01:07:00] for all eCommerce platforms. Um, and it starts, uh, with a Spain edition in November. They don’t, they don’t have exact date yet.

And then in March next year they will have one in Poland. Um, nice. And, uh, yeah, I think that’s, that’s,

[01:07:16] Kalen: Inacio loves events, dude. Inacio loves events, man.

[01:07:20] Willem: That’s that’s I mean, he used to, he’s the one that, that put up some of the first meet Magento events in Spain and then New York, right? Yeah. Um, that was interactive four.

Yeah. Um, yeah, so, uh, I think it’s, did he

[01:07:36] Kalen: start meet Magento New York? Was he the first one?

[01:07:40] Willem: Um, that was, um, helped me remember what her name was. Um, they, they had a New York office. Oh, Kimberly, Kimberly, Thomas. Yeah. Shout out to Kimberly. They acquired.

[01:07:58] Kalen: She tweeted me the other day [01:08:00] for the first time in like six years.

And, uh, which was, which was, which was cool to see. Sometimes people fall outta touch in the, in the, in the Magento Twitter sphere. But, um, yeah, no that, yeah, no, she definitely did that.

[01:08:11] Willem: That’s that’s cool. So I think she, she organized meet Magento. Uh, uh, her company got acquired by interactive four back then.

Um, so it was interactive for organizing it, but it was Kimberly red light.

[01:08:27] Kalen: Was that the, was that the company name? Red light something red?

[01:08:32] Willem: Um, I’m not sure.

[01:08:33] Kalen: Now I’m testing your memory now I’m flipping it around buddy. How’s it feel? How’s it feel, sir?

[01:08:41] Willem: I only know things about my generation. Oh, IOR generation.

[01:08:46] Kalen: You know what? You know what Willam I’ll tell you what

[01:08:49] Willem: again? Yeah. You walk out, you walk out. I’m done. Ah, great. Tick it

[01:08:54] Kalen: off. Yeah, we’re

[01:08:55] Willem: done. We’re done. Got it. Okay. So Kayla now no longer has a [01:09:00] picture of me and his background on the wall, which

[01:09:03] Kalen: I have so many great clips. I have so many great clips now

[01:09:07] Willem: to pull from.

Um, I’m happy about this. I’m happy about this. Um, yeah, so that’s, that’s the, that’s the events that are coming up and, uh, I think it’s a really nice agenda. Um, some really cool events and I think it’s cool that, uh, Ignacio and, uh, Cuba are starting more universal eCommerce events and, um, there’s more and more agencies that are not just implementing one platform.

Yeah. Uh, Shopify has been in two kit of many agencies for years already, and of course, shops is, uh, getting more and more internationally adapted. So, uh, even in interactive forests now doing both Magento and shop, um, and I think it’s, uh, it’s nice to get. A lot of the familiar faces from people that hop to other platforms into one place.

And just [01:10:00] talk about eCommerce in general. And I still feel like the, the, the cake is big enough. The ecosystem is big enough to all live in harmony and exchange experiences and just catch up in a more global event. Yeah. So, um, yeah. I, I think it’s, it’s really cool. It’s a good trend. I think. Nice man.

[01:10:20] Kalen: Yeah, that sounds good.

Sounds good. Good times. Good times.

[01:10:28] Willem: I have

[01:10:29] Kalen: crying CEO, LinkedIn crying CEO. What are we talking about?

[01:10:34] Willem: How do you feel about it’s a crying CEO?

[01:10:37] Kalen: I saw it’s, it’s impossible to get that phrase outta my head. LinkedIn crying CEO. It’s one of those sticky things, but I, I clicked on link. I was like, what is this from your doc?

And I looked at the, um, I, I skimmed the post and he was talking about, and it it’s one of these things, again, we joke about, but he, he was crying cuz he had to fire some people and um, [01:11:00] and now I feel like a jerk for joking about that, but um, but uh,

[01:11:05] Willem: I mixed emotions. Yes. Yes. It sounded. That’s a

[01:11:08] Kalen: great, so that’s a great way to put it.

I feel like I have very mixed emotions because I, I appreciate vulnerability and it does. Um, you know, if you care about people, obviously that’s gonna, that’s gonna, that’s gonna hurt you. Um, if you’re some CEO that’s fired so many people that you don’t even care, um, that’s not great. Um, but then, you know, and then there’s the picture of him crying.

It’s just like, it’s just a bit much,

[01:11:36] Willem: you know, so this is one of those things where you see where you first see the. And then you have to go and search, like what, what, what even happens. And then finally I found a post on LinkedIn where a CEO is, is, uh, sharing. Like this is the most vulnerable thing I’ll ever share.

And, uh, I needed to fire some people and it’s my fault because I made the wrong [01:12:00] decisions. And, um, the thing that, that, that, that makes it so mixed for me is that he makes the whole thing about him. And, and, uh, it’s such a cry for, it’s a bit of a cry for attention, or like mm-hmm, , I’ve, uh, I don’t know what somethings, you just shouldn’t put some things out there.

Mm-hmm in the way that, I mean, he ended with a picture of himself crying, like a selfie crying, selfie mm-hmm and, uh, I don’t know what to make of that. Um,

[01:12:34] Kalen: I actually, so I have a, I actually have a crying selfie queued up an air table. So you’re saying I should. I shouldn’t put that out,

[01:12:42] Willem: but your nothing is off limits.

Okay. Thank you. I mean, you’ve, you’ve hit you’ve. Nobody cares. Be confusion already. No. Yes. People already so confused that, um,

[01:12:52] Kalen: nothing matters. Nothing matters. You won’t throw them off anymore. I won’t throw ’em off. That’s the trick. See that? Here’s the thing you have to realize [01:13:00] that AI is very soon gonna be taking over social media.

So the strategy is if your tweets are too easy to understand, you’re not gonna be able to differentiate when the AI bots start responding to you. So you have to introduce sufficient amount of confusion that, that you can tell when the AI bots start taking like Brent, I believe Brent, his Twitter account is an AI, but it’s a G P T three bot.

He’s undercover. CIA. It’s been. It explains a lot of his content. It’s been a G PT three bot for the last five years. And you know, the

[01:13:38] Willem: joke is that he started, he, he put out a couple of tweets that were G P T three generated just recently. And it’s funny because they’re, they’re impossible to read. Um, that’s the joke.

I don’t think quite it’s quite been for five years, but, um, yeah, I think it’s been a long time. You you’re a good couple in that sense. [01:14:00] Um,

[01:14:01] Kalen: I don’t like the way you said that I don’t like that at all. I don’t like the way that you said that.

[01:14:06] Willem: Um, but anyway, now you’re looking back. If, if there’s anything you can tore off the wall, aren’t you, but my picture was already off.

[01:14:14] Kalen: I was, what I was gonna do is I was gonna put it back up just because I know it bothers you. That’s what I was gonna do. I’m gonna put this back up just to upset him. Um, but anyways, um, Yeah. So the Lincoln CEO thing. Yeah.

[01:14:28] Willem: Let’s talk about a couple of things that are going on in the gentle world.

[01:14:32] Kalen: Okay. Can I just say how much I’m enjoying the fact that you’re driving the you’ve got, you’ve put together bunch of topics and I can sit back and relax and just, just jam out.

It’s fun, man. It’s it’s

[01:14:47] Willem: so my, my objective is to pull you back into, you’re doing it, something in a community. You’re doing

[01:14:55] Kalen: it because here’s the thing

[01:14:56] Willem: I wanted soon enough, soon enough. You’re [01:15:00] going to change your browsing behavior into gathering topics for me, talk again. Yeah. By the way, you’re gonna get generally interested in magenta topics again.

And we’ll, we’ll build this stuff coming together with topics, by the way, what’s going on in mag gentle land.

[01:15:15] Kalen: I think I’ve put in some time though, because I used to prepare that dog. I was doubt doc was all me for years. So, so just, just, I’m just, I just wanna put that up, but honestly though, I think, and I want, I know I kind of wanted to talk about this was that I feel like I’m kind of falling in, falling in love with the Magento community again.

And I think for me what happened was for like, in those early days, right? It was my whole life coding all day, da, da for years, it was, it was, it was everything to me. Right. And then, you know, built, built, built ma mail got into the product space did was doing a less, less generic Magento development, but I was still a developer sold that commerce hero, da, da, then I’m like not, and it’s probably been several years now that I’m not actually, I know nothing about the [01:16:00] Magento code base.

Right. And I think, and then MA’s talk is going on that whole time. And I think for me and Philip we’re. Less, we were less in, we were less and less really connected to the Magento product. And it was kind of like, I think towards the end of whatever, our sort of run was, we were kind of try, like, you get to a point where you, you have an audience, you know, what they want to hear and you’re, you’re kind of, you fall outta love with it.

Like I heard this guy talking about that when the, in the WordPress community on some completely other, other podcast. And I was like, whoa, that I, I connected to it. You kind of fall out of love with it or you burn out or whatever. So many people have gone that route they’ve burned out or what they’ve whatever.

And, but you’re trying to hold onto it. You’re trying to. muster it up, you know, so I’m putting down, like, I remember I would be looking for topics to talk about cuz that’s what I’m supposed to do. Cuz I’m the magenta podcast guy, but I wasn’t my heart wasn’t there. And then I think that, [01:17:00] you know, I kind of pulled away from social media a lot and stuff like that.

And I think I’ve been, I sort of allowed myself to go like, yeah, I’m just, this just isn’t my thing anymore. And which is kind of hard to do. But like now I feel like I’m coming at it from another angle. It’s not the same as it was before where I’m the guy doing the coding. But when I, when I hear you talking about things, when I talk to Damien about things, when I, when I think about the ecosystem dynamics, um, there’s a, there there’s a, there’s a lane that I’m really genuinely interested in.

I don’t know if it’s valuable or not. We’re still talking. So that’s a good sign. Um, but there’s a, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a little niche that I can carve out that I’m genuinely interested in. Am I gonna be the guy that’s gonna write a bunch of code and look at Hova code? No, but I see the love for Hova.

Right? I see the, the, um, I see, like, I, I feel like I see the direction of [01:18:00] the attention of the community in different ways. And that gets me interested and I feel like I’m kind of getting pulled back in it’s different than it was before, but it’s real, but it’s like, it’s like, it’s genuine, you know, and some of it is goofy and weird and random and people like, what are you talking about?

But it’s just so

[01:18:16] Willem: all that to say, yes, I totally, I, I totally get that. When, when turning into a non coder, that means she lose identity. Mm-hmm I. I understand that bit. And I’ve, I’ve gone through a bit of that when I, with my burnouts, having to distance, shape myself from the company that I built, that I put all my emotion into for four years, five years, and then taking distance from that.

And, um, uh, I think maybe it’s, it’s, it’s somewhat similar, but, um, here’s the thing. Do you think brands does a lot of coding these days? Probably not. Do you, [01:19:00] uh, Sonya ger, Sonya France? Um, probably not Marcia, um, potentially, I mean, there’s so many, there’s so many people that are in touch with the community that are contributing to the community that are not coders, um, and are so many ways to contribute to the community and, and have genuine.

Being part of that and help building that. And yeah, we’re, we’re setting up a whole organization in hos and has so many different roles to be given out or to, to that are up for grabs for people like we’re, we’re building, we’re, we’re working on, on branding. Um, so we, we have discussions about the local that we created and how we communicate and, and different marketing things that we can do.

We’re setting up organization, we’re writing.

[01:19:51] Kalen: Is there a chief vibes officer role currently open? Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, that’s all me.

[01:19:59] Willem: [01:20:00] That’s all me. So genuinely I think, um, We’re we’re building a, a place for the community there. And, uh, we already have couple of hundred people on our disc. Uh, it’s getting more and more active.

Um, people are starting to contribute to the code base, but also, um, we’re writing content for Magento oriented or man, uh, website on Magento that doesn’t currently exist anymore. So, um, uh, John U big shout out is doing a lot of the work there. Um, a whole user guide about the features that Magento has. Uh, we’re planning on building a website with showcases of, uh, Magento stores that are currently life agencies can be listed.

And, and, uh, is this Aing call, are

[01:20:51] Kalen: you actively recruiting me right now? Is that what’s happening? Is this a job interview?

[01:20:56] Willem: I think you should have to [01:21:00] You wanna get me and that redirects you. That redirects you to our disc and just start chatting with us and just start hanging out some part of what we’re doing.

We’re having a lot of meetings that are open. Uh, I occasionally tweet about when we’re having meetings, but on Monday we have meetings on content. Uh, Brent is there and John is star Aaron MOS. Is there, um, who else is contributing? Who’s John who’s John. It’s

[01:21:31] Kalen: the second person you

[01:21:31] Willem: named John. John, you, John.

You, John. You Aaron Moss. John. You from fisheye.

[01:21:39] Kalen: Oh, John from fisheye. Why? Why did I think his last name was something else?

[01:21:46] Willem: Yui Yui U Hughes. How do you spell it? H U G H E S. Hughes

[01:21:54] Kalen: Hughes. Okay. Yes. He, sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, Hughes. [01:22:00]

[01:22:00] Willem: Sorry. Sorry. That’s a, that’s a gem gem carry version. He

[01:22:09] Kalen: Okay. Sorry. I was like, you’re saying this name. I should know. I should know it, but might be losing my mind. Yeah, no, that’s um, it’s cool, man. It’s a good time.

[01:22:18] Willem: I’m gonna, I think start John is legendary. John is really like one of the key people of love. John of me to us right now. Um, love John. He’s a driving force.

[01:22:27] Kalen: How did his, um, I remember he built out the training content. He was doing a training content type thing. Um,

[01:22:37] Willem: Yeah, there’s a, I think there’s a, a get up people where they put some exam preparation things, but, uh, I think I had a website. It

[01:22:46] Kalen: was like a cool like website. It had like, I feel like it had like different adventures or, or it had like a cool theme to it.

Quest, ma quest? Yes. Ma quest age quest, dude. Well, um, what’s going on here, [01:23:00] bro? Ma Yeah. Yeah. How’s that going?

[01:23:04] Willem: I don’t know. Um, I know one of his, uh, proteges, uh, keel.

[01:23:08] Kalen: Yeah. Let’s talk about keel, man. I like this cat. I like this dude. Let’s talk

[01:23:13] Willem: about this. It’s the real deal keel. What is

[01:23:15] Kalen: the deal?

What is the deal? Cause you said, I saw your tweet. You said this guy’s gonna blow up, but so is he just, is he just getting a lot of, I feel like he’s a younger me. I’m gonna take credit for that. The name is similar enough. So I just want, I feel like I want to take credit for it, but what’s he doing?

[01:23:30] Willem: He’s he’s uh, super sea and level three version of you.

Um, what, so he, he works at FA eye. Yeah, no, that’s a cop. I mean, like, he’s like the he’s like you, you and Optima prime. Um, he, uh, did you say super fisheye? Did you say super, super Saan? What is that super sane? Dragonball.

[01:23:55] Kalen: Z. Oh yeah. Yeah. IM not, I’m not a big, but you’re saying he’s a more [01:24:00] advanced version of me.

[01:24:01] Willem: So now Damien dam was in, definitely know what super Saan level free Damien would.

[01:24:06] Kalen: He does nothing but play video. Damien would know let’s, let’s be honest. Let’s be

[01:24:09] Willem: honest. The little kiddo. I was surprised that he’s just fur, he’s just 30 shocked and appalled. He’s super intelligent. The maturity level on that.

This explains why he’s a bit. Yeah. it’s impress. I like him. He’s he’s also, he’s super me to us. I love him. Open source task force. And as you pointed out, he has the sweetest voice to listen to doesn’t he, he could, he, he could do my, my meditation guided me meditation recordings. And it’s funny because you open your code editor and thigh.

Right, right, right, right,

[01:24:49] Kalen: right, right, right, right. That’s what I can do for the community is build out some meditation content. Some, some, some Deb specific

[01:24:58] Willem: developer focused. Yeah. [01:25:00] Yeah. You should build up the calm, calm app, Mitch, a hundred percent

[01:25:06] Kalen: That’s it. I’m kind of joking, but I’m kind of not because that’s something I’ve been working on for probably a year or two.

And I think, I think it’s, I think it’s helped a lot. I, I have a lot of. I’m I’m an anxious person. I think a lot of developers to be a good developer. You have to have a level of O C D you have to, you have to have a level of obsessiveness, I think, to be success successful with it. And, um, it’s not

[01:25:30] Willem: a requirement, but yeah, it goes hand in hand.

Often, often,

[01:25:34] Kalen: often goes hand in hand. So I, I I’m actually completely genuine about that. Like, I, I, I want to, I’m just thinking about ways to help, um, Debs be, you know, happier, more successful, more grounded. That’s great. Yeah. Damien could pull that out. His voice is so calm. It’s it’s almost mm-hmm ,

[01:25:55] Willem: it’s almost, uh, so back to keel.

Yes. So where keel keel works at [01:26:00] fisheye? Um, he’s he he’s, uh, just gotten certified. He was tweeting a bit about that. Uh, he only just opened a Twitter account and when I saw, I thought he needs a shout out because he’s doing some really great work. Uh, on Hiva contribution, uh, contributions. So that’s where I first noticed him.

But then I also, um, uh, so when I go into the Magental Reddit to see what trash they’re talking about, Hiva, uh, it’s the only place. Like, if you wanna see people say bad stuff about Hiva, you can go to Reddit. And there’s a bunch of people there that have never worked with HVA, but have an opinion on it.

Nice. And then keel keel is the person that writes super sophisticated, very long argumented responses to that. I love it. So like here’s a disclaimer, I’m working at a HVA agency, uh hu. A partner agency, but here’s why you’re wrong. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:26:59] Kalen: So just [01:27:00] very high signal, very high signal

[01:27:03] Willem: posts. He’s so good.

He’s so good. Yeah. Um, like this

[01:27:06] Kalen: kid, he’s gonna be a

[01:27:07] Willem: star. Yeah. I think he, he. he does, he does really cool stuff. He doing more and more open source things. And I think, uh, uh, I can see him going on stage and doing some really cool technical talks in the future. Um, writing content at Cera. So, um, and that’s good.

And fish eye is really producing. Uh, high, high quality talent. I think they have a good, good training program. Um, and, um, there’s also this, um, I don’t, I don’t know her, her name by heart, but if you, if you search, you will find her. There’s a, there’s a girl that, uh, started working there at deaf and she got onto, uh, the meeting, magenta London at the UK stage and, uh, women in tech panel.

Um, [01:28:00] and, uh, she’s also super talented. I think she also contributed to who already, um, yeah, there’s a lot of talent there. They were required by UE a Dutch agency. So, uh, there will be some changes, I guess. Shy was acquired fish eye. Yeah, fish was oh,

[01:28:16] Kalen: UE. Oh, wow. Everybody’s getting. It’s amazing. Yeah. Would you ever sell, would you ever sell Hiva Hova?

You just failed the test on the records. You were, you just failed the test. You were supposed to say no within two seconds. Um,

[01:28:34] Willem: man, it, it completely depends. Uh, this thing could, could really outgrow me. Um, and, uh, it could get to a point where this is a company that doesn’t need me. Uh, why would I stick around then?

Right now I’m having super, super much. I would never ditch it, like never. Um, but, uh,

the last letter, [01:29:00]

[01:29:00] Kalen: the last two letters of BDFL stand for, you know, the, you know, the acronym BDFL. For

[01:29:09] Willem: life leader, fearless

[01:29:10] Kalen: leader for life benevolent did leader for life. For life. Yeah. Yeah. For life

[01:29:17] Willem: it’s gotta be for, do you need to, do you need to, so do you need to be part of that company to be still be a leader?

No, I mean, we’re talking, you’re asking me a direct question. Would I ever, I don’t know. Uh, I don’t know how it looks in five years time. Um, uh, I’m for sure. I’m a hundred percent sure that this company company is going to be around for a long time and, uh, we’re just getting started and, uh, we have great energy.

We have great velocity, uh, great products, super enthusiastic customers, whole communities building up. Um,

[01:29:52] Kalen: so yeah, no, I’m just, I’m just, I’m just messing with you. I’m just having, I’m just having fun, having a little, having a little fun at your expense. [01:30:00] Um, but going, sorry, going, going back up the stack here, um, fish eye, what were we talking about?

Training content? Um,

[01:30:13] Willem: the, the discord. Yeah. So, uh, we were, we, we got off, off track. Uh, the moment that I said, shall we talk about some of the things that I put into doc, we started to talk about completely different things. Um, so let’s, let’s, let’s have a go at some of the things that I’ve, I’ve written down written down.

Okay. Um, so one big shout out that I wanted to give is to open match. That is, I think underappreciated, unnoticed, uh, by a lot of people, magenta one is still going really strong mm-hmm um, and, uh, they just released version 20 0 15, um, this week, I think, or, or last week mm-hmm . Um, and the amount [01:31:00] of contributors that are still active there.

And, um, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty cool that they have, they often have releases that are, um, more up to date than magenta twos, like, uh, mag PB, a 0.1 support was in open match way before we had it in magendo two. Nice. So they have, they have high velocity, uh, there some, some familiar faces, um, Like, uh, Freo Bano, who always was one of the most prominent people in the Magento, Magento, uh, community, uh, flying.

Well, we gotta

[01:31:41] Kalen: get, we gotta get Fabricio Damian Broca. We gotta get FIO Bronca back. I thought you were about to say his name. We gotta get him back, dude. We gotta get him back,

[01:31:54] Willem: um, community. And who else? Who else? Colin. Colin, modern Howard still active on [01:32:00] agenda one. He was one of the, I mean, what he did for, and his whole RAs. Integration into magenta. One that I think even made it into magenta two and all the work that he did just fantastic. Um, I remember that’s a really long list.

[01:32:17] Kalen: I remember when I met him for the first time at, uh, at an imagined event and I was like, I was, it was, I was so nerdy dude. I was like, it’s the Mo man guy. And I was like, totally geeking out. And then we like just hung out and talked for like three hours. It was amazing. He’s a really good dude.

[01:32:37] Willem: Yeah. I think of, um, it’s pretty cool that, uh, magenta one is still, still going quite strong.

And is it really found it’s it’s open source home, so to say so, no, it’s a great example that,

[01:32:52] Kalen: yeah, I would say, do you know how many stores are using, um, open age? Like roughly ballpark order of [01:33:00] magnitude? Is it like,

[01:33:01] Willem: I don’t think you could recognize them. Uh, if you go to B Whit and look at magenta one stores life.

You wouldn’t be able to say if that’s just someone that’s got stuck on 1.9 and never updated right. Or is on a newer version, uh, of open match.

[01:33:19] Kalen: But like the reality is like Colin, you know, Colin’s, um, you business and like the reality is they’re real businesses making real money that are, that are on M one and that are, and that are, and, and so they’re gonna continue to, um, you know, maintain it and it’ll be, it’ll, I’ve always been fascinated by what the lifetime of M one’s gonna look like.

Um, for years now, it’s something I’ve been really fascinated by and, um, it’s cool. It’s just.

[01:33:48] Willem: And, uh, Danielle FKA or, or flying manana, most people I think no as flying manna. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think he’s, he’s really pulling, pulling that whole, uh, that whole [01:34:00] effort. And, uh, he’s also engaged with, uh, MES. So he’s, he’s giving us some insights and tips on how to, uh, how to run own distribution.

So, uh, that’s really cool. Um, still, still going strong and part of this bigger community. Uh, it’s funny how some people decided just not to go work with magenta two. I wouldn’t wanna touch magenta one ever again, but I completely understand why some people still work with it because it’s just the level of entry is so much lower than with magenta two and it’s a stable product.

So, yeah, good for them. And then if you combine it with ma that provides security patches and everything, um, yeah, we see more and more migrations from mag agenda one to magenta two, uh, with Hiva. So, uh, that’s still, still, um, a lot will of course also go to other platforms because many magenta, one merchants are just not a good fit for magenta anymore.

Yeah. [01:35:00] Um, don’t say big comments. We’ll converse, right? We’ll convers we I’m

[01:35:03] Kalen: we’ll yeah. Um, nice man. Well, Hey, I think I gotta wrap it up in the next couple minutes. Um, cool. Are we, do we have any, any last things we wanna cover?

[01:35:15] Willem: So let’s push the whole,

[01:35:18] Kalen: oh my God. It’s been an hour 44. We’ve been going strong, dude.

Holy cow. I haven’t looked at the clock the whole.

[01:35:26] Willem: This is epic. We could go, uh, much, much longer, but, um, let’s push, um, any discussion or any talk about magenta association and the, uh, election process and the financial statements that they put put out. Let’s talk about that the next time. That’s a while

[01:35:46] Kalen: one, I mean, yeah.

Okay. Fair enough.

[01:35:50] Willem: So we have something to look out

[01:35:51] Kalen: to $900,000 and for what, and my question is what’s the refund policy. That’s all I wanna know. That’s all I wanna know. What is [01:36:00] the refund policy on the terms and conditions? That’s all I wanna know. Just curious.

[01:36:04] Willem: It’s a simple in short, it’s just really hard to analyze those numbers.

Um, it is, it is. Um, it’s just, it’s one amount and it, it accounts for a lot of things that, uh, that Smith SmithBucklin is handling. And it includes like the cost for the website and content creation and marketing budget, all of that. So it’s just a bit unlucky that all of that falls under one number and I’m sure it’s

[01:36:31] Kalen: very, I mean, honestly, I’m sure it’s very, I don’t know anything about these types of deals, but I’m sure it’s just very standard.

Adobe’s a big company. They wanna spin up an association. I’m sure. Dril or whoever else has done this before. Um, I’m sure it’s a standard amount of money and yeah, when we look at that number, it seems insane to us, but there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of things like that. Like I’m sure if I’m sure there’s a thousand.

Thi million dollar things on Adobe’s budget. If you were to [01:37:00] look at them that you’d go, yeah, that’s insane. But you know, honestly, one part of me thinks like, oh, this is crazy. We need to complain about this. And the other, the other part of me goes, this is really not, it’s really not that big of a deal.

[01:37:15] Willem: Yeah. Let’s, let’s, let’s hold that topic for now. And there’s some things to be said on that. Uh, I think it more or less makes sense, but there’s a bigger, a bigger topic of where, where we can bring the association. And not that I’m elected as a board member. I, I get some more insights into how the organization is, is functioning.

And, um, yeah, I, I only had one meeting last week, the first, first, uh, board director, uh, meeting. And, um, one of the things that I want to do is get a lot more transparency into what happens on the inside there and, uh, and give this be some purpose. I love it. Um,

[01:37:57] Kalen: good man. Thank you, sir. This has been a [01:38:00] lot of fun.

Thanks everybody for tuning in. And if you’re still listening, dude, you’re, you’re the real deal. You’re legitimate ma talk customer and we appreciate you.