[00:00:00] Willem: Welcome to Mitch talk. This is episode 233 and my name is venom

[00:00:09] Kalen: and I’m Kalin. That was that. That was, that sounded extraordinarily professional, like very.

Very slow, calm, confident. I like

[00:00:24] Willem: it. And the day to date into it is the 24th of August.

[00:00:28] Kalen: You’re so big on this date thing, man. It’s so strange to me, but I’m into it, man. It’s all good.

It’s

[00:00:35] Willem: all good. It gets a little bit of context that it’s been one week since we last talked, right.

[00:00:43] Kalen: Lot

[00:00:43] Willem: has happened. Magento.

Singapore has this week. Magento New York is in exactly one month time.

[00:00:52] Kalen: Oh, that’s nice, man. Um, alright, so I had an idea for, nah, I don’t know if I wanna run that by. [00:01:00] No, I’m not gonna run it by you. Um, I started, I, I did a little bit of, uh, I’ve been a little more active with the ma talk account as of late and, um, I’ve noticed.

Good, good, good, good, good, good. And, um, I was trolling some people in Singapore actually the other day. So that was kind of fun. Um, they were, um, yeah, they were going for a run and I was like, Hey, enjoy your run. Don’t don’t drop any trash on the floor. They might throw you in jail.

[00:01:37] Willem: Ray Bachman. That was right.

I think so Ray Bachman is going places. He’s going to all the events he’s he’s at Adobe. Huh? He’s a think support architect. Um, is it

[00:01:54] Kalen: safe to say this just occurred to me? Is it safe to say that the Netherlands is [00:02:00] now the, the epicenter of the Magento community, your

[00:02:04] Willem: thoughts, epicenter epicenter in a good way, or in a bad way?

[00:02:11] Kalen: In a good way. Epicenter is always a good way.

[00:02:14] Willem: I, I do joking. I do have to feeling well. I’m gonna try to, to get something something that makes stands out of anything you say. Um, let’s say something stands for there. Uh, I think, um, the, the community spirit or the open source spirit at the moment is strongest in Europe and Asia and less in the us.

It, I think it’s still strong, but it’s all, I mean, the whole, all the hackathons and all the contributions were always, um, very strong in Europe. Um, and, uh, I think that’s one of the reasons [00:03:00] why you are catched on quite well here in, in the nether, Germany, UK, and France. Um, that’s really, that was a. Uh, a good market for us to get started and, and, uh, grow fast.

And yeah, now I’m very curious. I’m very curious to get a feeling for how, how things are in the us will be the first time, uh, for a long time. Yeah. I will go to the us with New York and, um, uh, I’ve seen going to meet Magento, uh, London, UK. Um, Only Dan, when you actually talk to the people and all the agency, people come to you and share their sham and, and tell you what they’ve been doing with you’ve, that’s so much different than just answering emails all day.

And you know, you have customers there, but to really feel this, feel the energy sparkle and energy. Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m super [00:04:00] hopeful that the same happens in the us. If I go there that, uh, I need a lot of people that are just so into it. That’d be,

[00:04:07] Kalen: that’d cool. That’s a big boost. Yeah. I think that, I think that, and it’s funny, I’ve been talking to a lot of people recently.

I’ve been, you know, thinking about what new business I’m gonna do next. I’ve been talking to a bunch of people and, um, and I’ve been talking to agency owners and it’s like in the us. Like people are, people are, people are there’s something about Europe, the, um, parts of Europe, right? There’s there, like Europe never was big in, uh, Magento commercial licenses in the first place.

Like that was much more us thing. So it’s almost so, so I think the open source, um, ethos community is, has always been stronger in general in Europe. Um, don’t get me wrong. We have some heavy hitters as well in the us, but it’s more commercialized here. So there’s more partner ecosystem. And then a lot of agency owners here [00:05:00] that were in the Magento they’ve, they’ve, they’ve moved on, uh, and, and they’ve diversified or moved on or, or both.

Um, and they’re like, Hey man, listen, big commerce is going to let me get this site deployed for the customer at the right price. I’m. , you know, and it’s a very, uh, practical, you know, decision. Um, so, you know, yeah. So I think, yeah, I, I think it’s, um, and I’m sure that happens in Europe as well, but I think there’s a little bit of a difference there.

[00:05:34] Willem: Uh, I don’t see BI, I see Biers mostly in social media from us people. Mm-hmm I don’t see much traction in Biers here in Europe. Mm-hmm but the same goes, I know that’s more and more Shopify stores, but they’re usually quite internationally focused. Um, mm-hmm most of the local. The [00:06:00] local stores here, um, that are more focused on the European market itself.

Mm-hmm I don’t see that many of those, um, working with just Shopify, because for a long time, localization was a issue having multiple store views wasn’t possible. So you just needed to like recreate your whole store in different languages. Yeah, yeah. Integrations. We were lacking behind for a long time.

So I think Shopify really conquered the, the us, uh, market. Um, and I’m sure they’re doing great globally, but, um, the situation is like, um, it’s much different to Europe. I think, uh, open source is, is stronger, stronger head. So

[00:06:48] Kalen: yeah, I think so. And, and I, you know, I’ve been thinking a lot about the Megento community and the future of it and things like that.

And I think that, um, It’s funny. I was talking to somebody [00:07:00] recently. Um, you know, when you talk to somebody who is part of the company, like it’s very easy for me to criticize Adobe previous to Adobe criticize Magento the company. Um, but then when I talk to an individual, if I’m just thinking about the company as a whole, I don’t think of it as a person.

I think of it as an en a nameless, faceless entity. So it’s very easy for me to criticize, but then if I talk to somebody who’s there or was previously, there I go, well, this is a human being. That’s trying to figure things out and then I go, you should calm down. But, um, I think it’s important to also just.

Speak the truth. There’s that balance right? Between, you know, like the Bible says, speak the truth and love, um, uh, I’m on this whole biblical reference theme as well, which is funny. But anyways, um, um, which me and Phil had in common, all Europeans are all godless atheists, but that’s a, that’s another .

[00:07:56] Willem: I love, I love how Rick J [00:08:00] uh, Rick JVE has the best, the best conversations on the topic.

You, you probably know the one where, where is he has his interview and he says, this there’s a 999 gods that people, uh, pray to with the world. And, uh, you believe in one, I, I believe in, in one less than you, uh, I, I don’t believe in 999, and you don’t believe in 998 and, um, yeah, that’s good. I mean, I respect, I, I.

I think we should all respect, whatever religion or belief people have. Yeah. I, I always like expression what people say. Um, um, what was it again? Um, I think it’s something, something you should it’s best to keep for yourself and not, not try to push onto other people.

[00:08:59] Kalen: [00:09:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t. Um, yeah.

Um, I, I, uh, you know, the interesting thing is, and I, and I, I think about this a lot is I think that, um, uh, there’s no such thing as not having a religion. I think that we, what we see as like, I’m gonna tie this in to Magento stuff. but what we see like you see, as you see the growth of, um, like the death of religion and nutritional sense over the last, however many years, people develop their own groups and things and things they think, and some of them are pretty objectively.

You go, that’s kinda a weird idea, but people, whether it’s diet, you know, whatever. And I think what’s universal is people want to be in a group. And when you’re in a group, we are in the group, we’re on the team, you’re on another team. And what you said about respecting each other is I think what it all comes down to [00:10:00] and, and the tie into the eCommerce ecosystem stuff is that these platform ecosystems are low mini religions, you know?

Hmm. Um, Magento used to have a very strong. Uh, what’s the word I’m looking for? Like, uh, when, when everybody is fervent like a fervent community and everybody was doing it, it was all we were doing. We didn’t have to look at other platforms now everybody’s diversified. Um, and then, you know, like, like, you know, there’s people that just do Shopify and they think Magento people are idiots or whatever.

But I think just coming back to that thing about having respect anyway, the thing I was trying to say initially, was that, what was I trying? Oh, oh yeah. The future of the open Magento O open source. So I think I feel more clearly than ever that Magento as a whole, in terms of Adobe commerce, the commercial aspect, Adobe, the company, the community opens the whole thing is, is in decline and is a mess.

As a [00:11:00] whole, um, there is, but, but here’s the good news. The, there is a segment, the open source driven what you’re doing, uh, ma OS um, uh, that is probably smaller, obviously smaller businesses as compared to the, the, you know, hundred million dollar Adobe commerce clients or whatever they’re smaller that is thriving, I think is gonna continue to grow and is gonna have a really cool lifetime for a long ass time.

Um, and I think that’s a big part of what you’re a part of. And, and, and when, when we say small businesses, this could be like you said, you want a hundred, you said you have a thousand stores. You want a hundred X that, and I don’t think you’re. Delusional. I, I, I suspect you’re probably gonna do it. Um, and so that, that could be a really great sized market, you know, and it doesn’t have to be a trillion, a billion dollar market cap, a trillion dollar.

It doesn’t have to [00:12:00] be, you know, there’s no reason it has to be, it can be what it is and a great community where there’s a lot of love, good vibes, cool work, cool projects, you know? So anyway, that’s my whole rant on that.

[00:12:14] Willem: Yeah. I mean, there’s no denying that the community Ash shrunk, um, but it’s, it’s a logic side, logical side effect of having more platforms. Um, but also, um, technology evolving and. Um, magenta not being the, the one single tool that is available, but also not the one single tool that’s best for use case. And,

[00:12:42] Kalen: and by the, and by the way, like, like PE, like I was talking to somebody recently and, you know, people are very practical just because they’ve moved into another platform.

Right. And they’re focusing on big commerce, let’s say us agents or whatever. Right. Just because they’ve done that, does it mean that you can’t come in [00:13:00] with a practical solution to their problem on Magento and, and have them use that, recommend that to a client, get a sale, maybe start to grow again. Like if the pie of the Magento has sh.

For a given agency or agencies in average doesn’t mean you can’t start to shrink it back, the reverse that shrinkage. And I think that’s exactly what Hova exactly can do. Right. It’s, it’s ex it’s an extremely practical solution, um, that I think people can, you know, maybe it can solve a use case and it can make Magento not over expensive.

[00:13:38] Willem: Yeah. I liked it at some point. Uh, John panga, uh, from a, um, probably I’m butchering both his personal name and his agency name, but he’s from island. Um, he, he has a, uh, small shop, like small agency, uh, [00:14:00] and, uh, he, at some point, um, gave me the feedback that he went live with a, with a shop that normally would always have gone to Shopify.

Right. Um, and, and that with the Hiva offering, they did, they did two or three projects before they took on this client, because then they felt comfortable to, um, to give a fixed price for a project that was really compat, uh, competitive with a Shopify build. Right. Um, and so thanks to Hua, we can bring back customers to magenta.

That’s right. Otherwise that’s it. Right. We’ve been going to other other platforms and I’ve heard some of things. Yeah, yeah. From other agencies that, that, uh, so a lot of clients switching to, uh, for example, shop in, um, in Germany and one agency owner telling me like, well, um, we, we literally stopped the bleeding and now that we have Hiva, we can do [00:15:00] cheaper build.

So we’re not losing customers anymore.

[00:15:03] Kalen: It’s huge. At the end of the day, what you see, everybody’s on a spectrum of sort of like there’s the really super pure open source they’ll use Magento, no matter what, right? Other PE other people, Hey, we gotta make the bottom line work. We have to make this profitable.

We have to be within a certain price point. Everybody’s on a certain spectrum. I think the us skews a little bit more towards the practicality, but at the end of the day, you know, if you can, if you can make it more affordable, which is exactly what you’re doing, um, then, then people are gonna be interested in that.

I’m cur I’m curious to know, uh, in the case of the person who went to Shopify and then went back, um, it’s, it’s interesting. Like why, like, I’m curious to know more about that. Like, like I would think once you go to Shopify you’re in that ecosystem, you don’t have to worry about hosting all that kind of stuff.[00:16:00]

Like, what was the thought pro and then you start to reorient your agency, right? Like I was talking to somebody recently, when you’re in the Shopify world, you want to do marketing, you want to do design, you don’t wanna focus so much on techn technical development. So I’m curious what that looked like a little bit.

I know that’s not a very clear question, but, um, I think that migration is, is super interesting. Um,

[00:16:30] Willem: yeah, so I, I asked, I asked Joseph if he would hop a podcast with me and said, I’ll be happy to ride on a showcase together with you, but I don’t really feel comfortable. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally doing recordings.

Um, yeah, that makes sense. If he sent me, he sent me some information that I’m currently looking at. Um, he did a 40 hour build. [00:17:00] So that’s, that’s the weak work. So that’s, and it’s it’s mean with Hubba, with Hoover, with Hobar. Yeah. So, okay. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a low end build. So you have to imagine there’s not a lot of customization that he did there, but it’s, uh, I assume the merchant that is in a market where the product sells itself and you just need like the simplest UI to sell the product.

Like mm-hmm, show it. Mm-hmm, put it in a card and sell it. Um, and, um, I think with, with Shopify, your, your committing to a monthly payment, um, and is it even a conversion rate that like, do you pay,

[00:17:49] Kalen: uh, I think you pay a percentage of your sale. I wanna say you pay a percentage of your sales as

[00:17:54] Willem: well. . Yeah, I think so with, and it’s the checkout, the checkout [00:18:00] model, right?

And they’re, they’re really restricting what payment message you can use. You don’t own your card. You it’s, it’s, it’s harder. And I think for, for, uh, as a me smaller, smaller, medium businesses, it’s interesting to have a one time fee and know kind of what the, what upgrade cost. Of course, there’s, there’s a cost of ownership that comes with Magento and security updates and such, but just knowing that you you’ve bought something that you own.

Yeah. And it’s not like when you stop paying, it’s gone. Um, I, I think that’s, that’s an important one. Uh, At least in European markets. I think a lot of, a lot of business owners, um, are, um, feel like they wanna pay for something that they own and not just lease it. Yeah, yeah,

[00:18:52] Kalen: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think in general, like obviously there’s been a gigantic movement towards subscription payments, [00:19:00] um, in the last, I don’t know, decade or two, but that, that pendulum is gonna swing back and people are gonna go just not even with e-commerce.

I mean, even with personal monthly subscriptions, you know, people are gonna go, ah, I don’t wanna pay monthly for all this stuff. And that I think that pendulum will swing back and forth every couple decades, you know?

[00:19:21] Willem: Yeah. I just recently saw, uh, people doing a breakdown of the monthly cost and Shopify, and it showed that the cost of the extensions that they were paying monthly.

Right. A couple of hundred bucks. They were much, much higher than the cost of Shopify itself. Right. Uh, and as soon as you start riding off 2000 euros of extensions every month, it might be interesting to look in, into Magental, uh, uh, you either buy your extension for one time fee, but at least it’s not bound to your revenue.

Um, yeah, course, some of the extension S have gone to a subscription model, but it’s [00:20:00] still not, uh, it’s not 2000 euros a month, uh, for a couple of extensions. That’s

[00:20:05] Kalen: what I was gonna say is I feel like, you know, for example, if you’re doing email, like, uh, you know, you’re, you’re probably on Clavio or something like that.

Whether, whether I don’t know what the market’s like in Europe, but like, I know for example, in the Shopify world, I, you probably, you know, you’re on Clavio, you’re on list track or something like that. Um, um, so in that sense, though, those costs are kind of the same. whether you’re on Magento or Shopify, because yeah, in theory, you could have an installed extension.

That’s not SAS that does email marketing, but nobody, I mean, I don’t think anybody does that, you know, or all of these major SAS, um, extensions that are starting to have their own kind of ecosystems, whether it’s for like email or, um, shipping, shipping. Exactly. Like in [00:21:00] that sense, those costs actually aren’t really different from Magento to Shopify.

[00:21:08] Willem: No, no, but it’s more like little functionality that you would in magenta. You would, you would use a plug in different, right, right. UI UX things. Um right, right, right. Custom custom features in your, in your

[00:21:23] Kalen: right. That makes

[00:21:25] Willem: sense. Yeah. It’s interesting. Um, I’m generally, I’m curious where, where all of it is going.

Um, we certainly have good

[00:21:39] Kalen: thing. I need you to lean into the microphone and say, I am corporate.

I literally started laughing when I saw

[00:21:54] Willem: yeah.

[00:21:54] Kalen: You, so what do we, what have we got in the dock? So, oh,

[00:21:57] Willem: sorry. People [00:22:00] have to know what you’re talking about. No day. I know you tweet that I would someone would someone would, someone would get, get on my back and complain about things that I yeah. Say on this podcast, but there, this there’s no one that I, I don’t report to.

No one Caleb, you don’t report to anyone. That’s the

[00:22:19] Kalen: thing. I love it. I love it.

[00:22:21] Willem: I love it. Cause that’s people might stop telling me things at some point, but.

They might, they might regret letting me onto ation board um, but at least I was invited in there. So that’s a good, that’s a better position. That’s so there was the election where the community could vote for a person to, to get onto the board. And, uh, I, um, I, I aimed for the, for the second, the second round where a commission, uh, a committee would elect two members to get onto the board, [00:23:00] because that would be a vetting process where the current board would actually have to agree to the person getting on board of the right of the association.

And for me felt, because I, I think I, I might have some controversial thoughts and, and, and, uh, go against some of the things that the ma has been doing so far that it felt like they need, they needed to accept me on board. Right. Right. And like, invite me in, instead of being stuck with me because the community voted me in.

Yeah. That’s a good point. I’m the unwanted, I’m the unwanted person there on the board,

[00:23:36] Kalen: right? No, that’s a really, that’s a really good point. I mean, it doesn’t help. It doesn’t hurt that you paid them a little money under the table to, to give you the position. Um, That always

[00:23:49] Willem: that’s always.

[00:23:52] Kalen: Um, so I just have the doc on my phone.

I’m not looking I’m, I’m not just browsing TikTok while we’re chatting. I just pulled up the, [00:24:00] um, pulled up the doc,

[00:24:03] Willem: talking about TikTok. How much, how much time do you spend on Dick TikTok?

[00:24:09] Kalen: I probably spend, I try to spend like, not more than an hour a day. Okay. But it’s kind of my main until I started doing real active Twitter trolling, which is starting to take more time.

Um,

it’s kind of my, it be, it’s become my main, uh, social, social media as far as just browsing as a consumer.

[00:24:37] Willem: What, what, what, what things do you consume? Because I had this discussion with, with Philip on, on Twitter, I made a joke. Um, Uh, Phillip mentioned the four you page, the fi yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The five and Peterson didn’t know what it was. So I jokingly sat it’s it’s this, uh, it’s where girls in [00:25:00] bikinis do dances on pop music, uh, on Twitter and, uh, Philip Philip went onto, um, um, taking conclusions out of that, that, that I have trained my tech talk algorithm to show me bikini girls. Yeah. So it was very ting about my behavior, which was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is not what my actual feed looks like, because I haven’t, I hadn’t trained my, my feet at all. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, so, so Philip, Philip, Philip trained me. He, he taught me how to train the algorithm and, uh, apparently it took me five minutes of telling tech talk that I don’t need to see the dance videos.

And now I just, I only get, uh, standup comedians and, um, yeah. Yeah. And uhm, Harry Mack

[00:25:48] Kalen: yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, you’re talking about Philip from view store. for which

[00:25:54] Willem: Jackson? Oh,

[00:25:56] Kalen: mouse. That’s so funny. How times

[00:25:59] Willem: have changed? I wanna [00:26:00] call him Phil. I wanna call him Phil, but it, I know in my head he doesn’t like

[00:26:03] Kalen: that in my head because it it’s hard coded as, as Phil and I, I have to purposely say Philip every time, but, um, but

[00:26:11] Willem: anyways, it’s the same for me.

Yeah. Actually Twitter handles Phil Winkel and so it’s the most, I’ve always felt he has no. Right, correct. He, he needs to change his Twitter handle if he doesn’t want to be called

[00:26:24] Kalen: Phil. He has no, right. Yeah. Um, I’m actually super fascinated by the, to algorithm and I, I think a lot about it. I think. I saw somebody say that what, one of the things they did to make it successful is they took, uh, Facebook’s, uh, lookalike audience functionality for advertising targeting and they baked it to the, to the entire, uh, to the social network itself.

So out of the box, it’s doing lookalike targeting, um, as, as well as like behavior stuff. So like, I see nothing, but like, I see like [00:27:00] funny stuff, stand up stuff like dads, doing stuff with their kids, parents doing funny stuff with their kids, like random goo, you know, um, goofy stuff like that. But yeah, the, the, the, um, the stereotype is it’s just girls dancing and, and I’m sure there’s a lot of that, but like, I think it also figures out like your age and it puts you in a cohort and then it, and then it, um, it, it buckets you in that way.

So it’s a lot of just goofy stuff. Um, I think, I think for

[00:27:31] Willem: me, The thing for me is that it’s, it always feels like a waste of time after I finish scrolling it for, for an hour. Um, yeah, but still I’m drawn back to doing it, but it doesn’t like at least Twitter, Twitter is purely for, for business use for me.

I mean, it’s, it’s entertaining, right? Uh, Twitter’s where I do my professional social stuff and LinkedIn. Yeah. Because I just have to, it, it has, yeah, I would have, I would’ve. [00:28:00] A lot more traction on LinkedIn posting stuff, but it’s just for me, the, the magenta community is still Twitter. And if I feel like sharing something I’m doing or, or any random thought that I have, that I don’t wanna share, it comes naturally to me to share it on Twitter.

And then, and then at some point I think, well, it probably makes sense to do it on LinkedIn as well, because I have more people yeah. Reacting to it there, but, but TikTok just doesn’t really, it doesn’t really engage me. Yeah. Um, and it doesn’t really bring me to content that, that really, um, invites me to think about

[00:28:40] Kalen: stuff.

Yeah. That stuff. Yeah. It’s kind of just dopa in hits. Yeah. I think it’s just, just personally entertaining. It’s not. Productive from a work standpoint, although I’ve been starting to, to I, if I see, like, I, for example, I saw, I I’ve been starting to think of like repurpose funny videos for like me memes.

Like I saw one that I [00:29:00] posted today that was like this UFC fighter and he’s going, and he’s cheering somebody on. He’s like, yeah, give him an upper cut. Give him a, and then I posted it as a meme. I was like, point of view when you see somebody pitching Magento against big commerce. Um, yeah. I, what, so I don’t know.

Uh, anyway, but, but, uh, people would probably hate that stuff, but, um, Yeah. So I think, um, yeah, I think it’s more just a personal thing, but like, yeah. I mean obviously like if you it’s, you know, it’s one of those balanced things, it’s like, if you spend too much, like there’s all sorts of entertainment that you can spend too much time on, or you can kind of spend the right amount of time.

Like we all need some entertainment, we all need, uh, something where we kind of check out, you know, like, like, like I used to be into games when I was a kid, I kind of got out of it, but a lot of people my age and probably especially your age are, are into games. Um, and you know, it just kind of like pick your poison and, and, [00:30:00] and, and, and try not to have too much of it, you know,

[00:30:04] Willem: but, uh, Yeah, gaming works well for me when, during my periods, I did a lot of gaming because it’s just an instant way to shut off my brain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, if I’m, if I’m at a good place, I can, uh, read a book and I can really like, get lost into the story. But when I have too much of my mind, I just don’t shut down. So I can’t read a book even because I, I finish a page and I, I have no idea what I just read. So I’m just on instant, constant repeat of that one page.

And then I give up yeah, totally with gaming. It’s just switch on, put on your headset and uh you’re.

[00:30:47] Kalen: Yeah, yeah. It’s um, that whole thing of like turning your mind off, um, like I do, I try to meditate every day and I, and at first it was like torture and I’ve talked to people about [00:31:00] it who are like, yeah, it sucks. It’s torture. And then over time and I started stop, started, stop, started, stopped, and then tried different ways.

But then eventually I feel like I got to where, um, it, it helps sometimes, you know, I heard somebody say like, how do you know if meditation is helping or no? How do you know if you’re making progress? Cuz it can feel very, um, unclear. Right? Cuz all you’re doing is sitting there like not thinking or whatever.

And um, and they said, you know, it’s gonna, it feels horrible at first. But if you get to the point where you feel like some of the time, it helps a little bit, that’s the first stage that, you know, you’re making some progress and um, yeah like the shutting your mind off thing, I’m still I’m I’m still horrible at reading books.

I can’t read, read a book to save my life and I’ve tried a couple times. There’s this one book I read with my daughter. Well, [00:32:00] she reads it to me and we talk about it and then that’s, that’s kind of fun, but, um, I can’t do that, but like going to sleep at night, I used to always have to listen to something I’d listen to a TV show.

Like, um, I think we talked about this or, or, um, but I finally got to the point where I don’t do that anymore. I just play like some rain sounds in the background. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm and nothing. And, and sometimes it’s hard cuz your mind is racing. But I, I, I finally got to the point where I can fall asleep without anything, which sounds so basic.

But to me it’s like, it was a, it was a big milestone that just the whole turning your brain off department, you know? Hmm.

By the way, how does my audio sound? Cause this is a new mic. I’m experimenting with some new mics.

[00:32:50] Willem: It’s a bit soft.

[00:32:52] Kalen: Okay. Um, I’ll I’ll balance it out. Um, What fix it to post. I [00:33:00] realize, yeah, literally I I’ll I’ll normalize it, but like, so when it’s closer like this, it probably sounds a little better.

[00:33:06] Willem: You’re making it really hard to fix it in post now.

[00:33:10] Kalen: well, I know, I, I think it’ll norm, I think it it’ll, it’ll normalize like the normalize,

[00:33:15] Willem: but yeah. Conversation is pretty well now it’s, uh, I it’s a bit distorted now. Um, okay. Gotcha. So

[00:33:25] Kalen: it’s like,

[00:33:25] Willem: yeah. I, to too directly into the mark.

[00:33:28] Kalen: Got it. Yeah. I realized that, um, I wanted something wireless because I was so distracted by since I’m so weird and I move around and do weird stuff all the time.

Mm-hmm I, I can’t sit still if I try to sit still and talk, it’s like, I can’t focus. So I realize I need something more wireless. I got this. And then, uh, anyways, I gotta, I’m continuing to iterate on that.

[00:33:54] Willem: Do you, uh, Do you want to go over a couple of things, some [00:34:00] innovation things on, on, in Magental land,

[00:34:02] Kalen: dude, I, it occurred to me yesterday that, yeah, I don’t know why it occurred to me yesterday for the first time. I know we didn’t get through the dock last week. It occurred to me. We didn’t get to the extension of the week.

And I was like, dude, that was literally the only thing we should have gotten to because the extension of the week is probably the thing that I most frequently remember people liking and enjoying. And I, I would come up with them a lot. And the fact that, you know, you go Kalin, we’re gonna do a proper ma talk episode.

I didn’t know what you meant. And then you came with an extension of the week, an anti pattern and all kinds of stuff. And I was like, this is amazing. And then we didn’t even get to it last week. So absolutely. Let’s, let’s dive into the extension of the week. I.

[00:34:53] Willem: Cool. So no one would expect me to pitch this one because you could see it as competition or , [00:35:00] but I think it’s a really good thing for the Magento ecosystem.

Um, and this extension of the week is breeze platform or front end, uh, which is, um, more of a plugin that you would use with Lua team that rewrites required JS stuff to. So what they did was not rebuild the whole front end or the whole Lua team, but they reimplemented the JavaScript, um, keeping, keeping some of the things in tech.

So the dependencies, the way that require JS, um, uh, has this waterfall of, um, well it’s can it, it can require other libraries and they kind of rebuild that with their own logic. Um, I think this is amazing. It’s it’s pretty cool. Um, that I think this is 99%, the work of VVA [00:36:00] yacht yacht, Y V yacht. He works at Swiss labs and that’s an extension provider, by the way.

[00:36:07] Kalen: Are you starting to realize now, as you’re beginning to be the host, how hard it is to pronounce anything correctly and you try to pronounce something and you go, I have no idea if I’m doing this right.

[00:36:19] Willem: I’m pretty sure this was spot. For for . But

[00:36:23] Kalen: the last one, the last person you mentioned, you thought you might have mispronounced, I’m just saying Ray Boman.

No, no, no, no, no. It was something I was, you’re starting to feel my pain a little bit is all I’m saying.

[00:36:36] Willem: Ah, the John panga, but,

[00:36:40] Kalen: but that’s that was it. You mispronounced his name and his company name

[00:36:45] Willem: it’s um, his company name a Och I’m sure. Uh, he, he corrected me once and I immediately forgot what, uh, what he was hundred percent pronounce it.

Hundred percent Irish. It’s just a bit it’s um,

[00:36:58] Kalen: it’s a bit crazy, a bit it [00:37:00] in it, but can I, can I say how good yeah. Back tore. Can I say how good their headline is? And I’m a big headline guy, a gentle shift from default Magento front end towards all green performance. Mm-hmm it really spells it out nicely.

Right. So Hova is probably less Hova is a more of a dramatic shift and this, like you’re saying, it’s more of just, Hey, we’re gonna, we’re cleaning up Luma. Um, it’s a little bit more straightforward,

[00:37:33] Willem: right? Yeah. So I think the issue that we tackle with HOAs also that people just don’t wanna work with the Luma stack anymore.

Um, totally, totally. And it’s, it’s painful to optimize and there’s a lot of work that you need to do to get performance better. Uh, what the guys at, at Swiss labs did, or at least what, uh, what fava did, um, was reimplement the slowest [00:38:00] parts of Luma, which is the way that required GS works. That doesn’t mean that you get to work with a, with a more modern technology stack.

You’re still stuck with technologies. People stopped using eight years ago, but the fact that they’ve put so much time and effort into fixing this performance issue for those that are unable to switch to a new front end, um, I think it’s still. You need to make extensions compatible with it. They have a couple of extensions, I think that are listed on, on get up that they’ve made compatible.

It’s a handful. This is coming from an extension vendor labs and they tie it into their existing teams and their extensions. So if you’re a Swiss labs user, then it definitely might make sense because everything would more or less work out of the box. But then if you have third party extensions that you need to use, um, you would need to rewrite them yourself.[00:39:00]

And that the benefit that we have with UVAs, that we are not an extension vendor. So we’re not competing with MSSD ahead works at Cedar. So, um, we built a community around it. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes the extensions compatible. Now all the extension vendors decided to start making compatible extensions.

Right, right, right, right. So it’s kind of a different position. Um, and, and with different you’re kinda technology stack that’s enjoyable to work with. Yeah. Um, but yeah, again, I think it’s super generous that the it’s it’s in a true, true, uh, spirit of open source that he built is an open source that, and, uh, this, this, so was it just open source?

It’s it’s not even much work into

[00:39:49] Kalen: it, so is it just free?

[00:39:51] Willem: So, or it’s they, let me double check that because I was under the, uh, [00:40:00] I, I was pretty sure that it was, um, because I read an announcement that the open source it on, on get up, um, getup.com/afront and there’s bunch of, uh, bunch of repo. You can find there.

And, uh,

[00:40:21] Kalen: yeah, I mean, I’m just, I see the composer install, instructions here, installation. It looks like it’s just straight up free, open source

[00:40:31] Willem: that’s so that’s, that’s really cool.

[00:40:33] Kalen: Um, that’s awesome, man. Yeah, I, um, wow. This is an impressive job on your first extension of the week. Not only is it really good, but you were magnanimous enough to highlight a competitor ish, which I respect.

Um, this is really cool.

[00:40:54] Willem: I think this is, this is solving an issue in Magental community ecosystem. As much as you are [00:41:00] solving an issue and the more, the more solutions we have against Luma, the better. And, uh, you know, I collaborate with few storefronts. Yep. Um, we, we have this webinar coming up the 30th of.

August. So that’s and, uh, that’s next week on Tuesday, I think, um, people should subscribe, go to magenta association.org and subscribe to the webinar because we’re gonna explain what, even as a spa and a PWA and what has happened and what is microservices and all of that. Yeah. And when should you use it or when shouldn’t you use it?

[00:41:41] Kalen: Yeah, it’s funny. Cuz I was going back and working on clips of our last episode when we first talked about it and I did one of this and as I was doing it, um, it occurred in it. I kind of, it occurred to me how big of a deal it was because I feel like, and I could be wrong, but I feel like every discussion [00:42:00] of PWA headless is so biased.

And so. , you know, it’s a business guy pushing something to sell. Um, and I feel like maybe this is the first time that there’s people who really understand, you know, I, I, the tweet I joke, you know, jokingly posted was like actual nerds that know what they’re talking about. Um, really understand, like you’ve got the agencies that make these actual decisions day to day.

We’re not talking. an agency who did one implementation of headless, and now they’re gonna give their case study, which is an advertisement, you know, or somebody who’s planning it. So it just, um, and I love the vibe between you and Philip. Like, I think I love how collaborative you guys are. Obviously he’s wicked smart, you know, you’re eh, okay.

But, um, I think it’s, uh, I can

[00:42:56] Willem: buy yeah, you get buy. Yeah. But the, the cool thing is that, so, [00:43:00] so Phillip and I both obviously are biased in the way we both believe in our product, but we also both believe that our product is not the one solution for every merchants. Yeah. Um, and, um, we’re trying, we’re not going to, we’re not gonna.

Steer the webinar with our opinions. Uh, it’s mostly, um, letting, uh, Cian and, uh, Luke and yes, uh, do the talking and it’s, it’s nice if you have yesterday as well, because he’s, uh, he’s coming from a whole different perspective is of course a trainer that, that gives trainings in, in all of the D front end solutions and Luma and Hiva and fuel storefront and PW studio.

Wow. That’s super earlier in data. So he knows all of the platforms. He works with all the agencies that work with one or multiple of these solutions. So he knows his stuff. Um, [00:44:00] is data still

[00:44:01] Kalen: around? So what’s to deal with that.

[00:44:04] Willem: It’s a bit unclear what the, the data product. Itself is exactly they have, they now have Falcon and Falcon is, uh, more of a platform that combines as far as I understand it combines E R P logic.

And it’s more of a middleware layer that ties all of these services together. Okay. Um, and I don’t know if D still the name of the, the front end solution. That’s part of Falcon, but at least, um, mag inspiration that they had. Yeah. Well, it was D and now it’s Falcon. Uh, it might still be D but I I’m pretty sure they pulled the open source code from getup at some point.

And it’s still be favorable, I think, but it’s more close close-ish. Um, right, right, right, right. Um, Definitely still round. Uh, they’re in the, [00:45:00] in the, in the BigCommerce space. Um, oh really? They’re yeah, the

[00:45:04] Kalen: one that’s that’s right. They were, I remember they were announced as basically like the big commerce PWA front

[00:45:10] Willem: go to front end, like, like few storefront is kind of the go to front end for shop web helpless, go to front end.

Right, right,

[00:45:18] Kalen: right, right, right, right, right.

[00:45:20] Willem: Yeah. I thought that was they if its a bit.

[00:45:22] Kalen: Yeah, totally. And, and everybody is gonna make their pivots and stuff like that. And that’s, and that’s cool. And um, I think the sweet spot, like you said, you you’re biased. Of course the sweets, you can’t get a company off the ground without being biased, without believing in what you’re doing.

Um, but I think the sweet spot is you really believe in what you’re doing. You’re working your ass off to make it, you know, to grow it. And at the same time you are not, you, you know, you’re not gonna say things that aren’t true. You’re not gonna. You know, if something’s the better solution for X, you’re gonna say, yeah, it’s the better solution.

You’re not, you’re not gonna be, you’re not gonna have like a false [00:46:00] bravado, but you’re gonna be confident enough in what you’re doing to be able to be honest about, you know, the other options out there. I think that’s exactly the sweet spot. And both of you guys, I perceive as being exactly in that sweet spot, which isn’t always the case for people that are working on products.

[00:46:20] Willem: We, we have to just build the best possible product. And we, we, our claim is that we do everything to our, our best capabilities to make people happy. Yeah. Uh, eCommerce make made happy is our, our slogan. Um, and, um, and if you don’t live up to that expectation, uh, you’re gonna fall hard. Like you can’t pretend.

Yeah. Because it’s all open. Like we, we have all of our customers in a slack. Talking to each other. Yep. If one is not satisfied, they will all know. And the all of Twitter net then LinkedIn will know. Yeah. Yep. Um, [00:47:00] so we were very much focused on making people happy with our products and doing the best possible.

And, and I think that’s something that I, I really have in common with Philip, for Alki, from Fu storefront, because, um, the reason we got talking was because, um, he saw, we had the Twitter exchange while we wrote about hatless not being the best solution for every customer. And he agreed. And he said, we it’s hurtful for us as a ATLA storefront.

If merchants use our solution, that shouldn’t be using it in the first place because they won’t be happy and they will tell other people that they are not happy. So it’s up to us to give the best possible. Um, the best, best possible, uh, explanation of what we do and help people to the right solution and not sell it on a false advertisement because yeah.

That, that doesn’t lead to happy customers.

[00:47:58] Kalen: Totally. [00:48:00] Um, alright. Should we go to the anti pattern?

[00:48:03] Willem: Yeah. Uh, the anti pattern of the week, and this is one that we come across, uh, quite often that people switch to Hiva or have a new storefront and they come to us and say, well, our, our performance are lighthouse scores are still not green circles.

And, um, they ask us how they. How they can improve the front end while in reality, it’s often the back end that needs to be optimized. Okay. And you can’t have, you can optimize your front end as, as much as you want. If your, if your server ran the time is six seconds. It doesn’t matter if the front end loads in one or two seconds, because your lighthouse score will be very bad because it already takes six seconds to generate a page on the server side.

Right? So the pattern is improving front end performance before fixing backend [00:49:00] issues. And if you’re, if you’re looking at a magenta store that. I’ve seen 32nd load times on, on stores, on, on Luma, uh, that, that I optimized by just fixing, fixing one extension that loaded something in the loop, uh, which makes me think of even chip and, uh, loaded loop podcast that you get together with Eric Hillman.

Yeah, they were great. They, they always, uh, looked at magenta stores and then, uh, did the black fire profiling. If you wanna learn about optimizing backend performance, go to YouTube and search for load in the loop mm-hmm and you get a whole series of, uh, of recordings that Yon and Eric did what they actually show how to debug.

Yeah. Uh, backend performance issues. Yeah. So, uh, not using varnish, uh, not having your, your caching mechanisms in place, having images that are [00:50:00] way too big are all issues that, that if you don’t do that, well, those issues are so big that it, it makes no sense to optimize the front end before you tackle those issues.

[00:50:11] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, is there, is there, I keep thinking one thing that would be good for Megento one of the other little business ideas I had once upon a time was to have a service that just focuses on helping people optimize their, their stores front end focused back and focused. Is there, is there like a go to, I mean, I know that every agency does performance audits and stuff like that, and they’re basically, you know, generally just kind of lead generation to try to get more work from the client is my perception.

But like, is there a go to person. Who like who would be the person to do performance optimizations?

[00:50:56] Willem: Yes, there is. Um, that [00:51:00] person is VIN Hoffman and of course he’s a Dutch

[00:51:03] Kalen: guy. Yeah. I, I connected with him, but he’s front end focused, right? Yes.

[00:51:09] Willem: Views. Well, yeah, I think he would go to him to get, um, get, uh, audit of your front end performance.

But in that process, he will identify your backend loading times and, and issues you have there. Okay. Um, but, but, uh, his eCommerce specialized. So, um, he might. I’m not, it’s a good one. I’m not sure how far into backend. I know he’s super technical, but I don’t know if he’s that technical that he will profile your Magental backend and fix those issues.

Right. But there are, there are, there’s a couple of agencies that do independent auditing of your shop, including performance audits. Yeah. Um, [00:52:00] and, uh, I’ll leave it to the listeners, to, to Google for those agencies and, and find one that’s suitable for you because there’s a, there’s a couple, uh, I won’t play favorites, but there are, uh, that quite some agencies that, that, uh, focus on performance and often, um, what I mentioned a shop having a 32nd load time, um, that was something that with a little of profiling with black fire, I fixed in, in an hour.

Wow. And got it down to eight seconds and then some additional. Additional fixes brought that down to an average of two seconds. I think it was a B2B shop that had a lot of custom, they did price fetching from their E R P and there was no middle layer. So there was a lot of API calls going directly to their to their E P system.

Right. It’s wild, uh, things like fetching fetching, a review average score from a API in the front end and not cashing that result. So for every visitor [00:53:00] that hits right. A Magental page that it’s not cash yet did, uh, API call to, I think it was ke or another review system. Trust pilot. Um, yeah, just putting that into a CR job and doing that API call and a CR job once an hour or once a day, fetching that data from the database.

That’s that saved at least a second in the front end on any on cash page. Nice. So that’s, , that’s pretty ridiculous. Yeah, that’s awesome. Um, but as people specialized in, in, uh, in that, while we’re talking on performance, uh, there’s one thing I had in the doc that I wanted to bring up, which was a piece of innovation that, uh, hyper note came.

Oh, cool. Um, uh, hyper note, a Dutch, uh, Magento hosting, uh, provider. They merged with Hix, which was, I think the second largest Magento hosting provider in the Netherlands. So, uh, they’re both, both now part of the [00:54:00] blue group and that’s, that’s all under the name hyper note. Um, and I know that hi, uh, worked for a long time on the, on a front end performance tool.

Mm-hmm that would improve your Luma performance without touching any of the code. Um, and if finalize that tool now that merged with hyper nodes, um, they have, um, something that’s called the hypo note pitch, beat booster. Okay. And they launched that just one or two weeks ago. At least they, they started blocking about it publicly.

Um, And what’s interesting, there is that they have a set of optimizations that they do that are on the edge kind of. So it’s not on the server rendering, but it’s actually on the, on the, on, um, the delivery mm-hmm so they cash. Um, it’s something that I had in my mind years ago as well. Like what if [00:55:00] you, if the first person gets a page that’s UNCA, but then you analyze the page and save that you do a HX through cash through the server to, to store some of the data in the front end mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm , um, things that were loaded and optimize that.

And they now, um, with, with the pitch pit boost or from hyper note, uh, the first person that visits the pitch gets the regular performance mm-hmm . But then that responses before that serve to the customer or the visitor it’s being stored, I guess, in variations or something, um, mm-hmm and they, um, They run some optimizations on the images that are being loaded.

So they rewrite all the images to the rights, uh, to the resolution of your visitor. So the, the, the screen resolution, um, and they do things like analyzing what JavaScript files were loaded. Mm-hmm and then add those to the, the pre connect haters [00:56:00] of the page mm-hmm . So you can, you can add metadata to a page that tells your browser to start fetching JavaScript files.

Right. Right. Even before the browser rendered the page and, and found out fire required JS, which files are actually being are, are, are needed. Right. Um, so it’s pretty, that’s pretty cool. Pretty cool that they built that into,

[00:56:25] Kalen: does it have any Magento specific stuff or is it just more at the JavaScript level and stuff like that?

[00:56:35] Willem: No, they, they built this specifically for, uh, Magento mm-hmm and they call it a optimization as a service. So it’s an additional package that you take on top of a, a hyper note hosting package. Mm-hmm um, they put all of these optimization task into, uh, uh, kind of a CR job or a back end worker mm-hmm um, that improves the performance of the paycheck already has [00:57:00] been served to a visitor mm-hmm

[00:57:02] Kalen: um, that’s cool.

It sounds. And, um, yeah. Yeah, I’m a little foggy. It’s been a while since I’ve gotten to the details of like varnish and whole punching and stuff, but it sounds, it sounds like, kind of basically varnish with like CDN image type stuff. Um, but if they, if they do that all for you in a way that like just works.

Out of the box, cuz normally like when I had set, but when I set up varnish, the last time I was with a merchant, I had to go in and fix certain Mo get certain things to work, get certain modules to work and stuff like that. And

[00:57:38] Willem: it requires it’s one of the most expensive things is to optimize your Luma store for performance.

So anything literally anything that’s being done to solve those issues? Uh, I’m a fan of, yeah. Um, And the things that they, that they list us as what they, what they optimize is the, the JavaScript. So they’re minimizing and deferring it [00:58:00] to optimize for first concept for pains, they do the DNS pre connect.

So what I just said, like if they see that you’re using a particular Google font, they will make sure that the DNS records are already looked up and is already a connection being made to the Google server. So that once the page realizes that it’s using a Google font, otherwise it would need to do a DNS lookup.

That’s, uh, couple of milliseconds before it can actually download the font. So there’s a bit of back and forth between servers, um, and that, or between your browser and the server, and that can all be optimized, uh, which you do in a quite, quite clever way. Um, they do CSS optimization by, by creating critical CSS automatically.

They optimize the images, as they already said, turn it into AIF AIF format. Um, they shrink the HTML and in case of a PWA, they do JavaScripts conversion to HTML. So they, they basically even [00:59:00] build as a R rendering for PW into that. So it’s, it’s, uh, uh, I think it’s, it goes quite deep into optimization and it’s just, I, it looks like it’s plug and place, so you just pay for it and it’s all taken care of might be better solution for you than to spend thousands of euros on a developer optimizing each of these things.

Yeah. That’s

[00:59:24] Kalen: so cool, man. Yeah. That’s neat. I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna dig into this a little

[00:59:32] Willem: bit piece of innovation.

[00:59:34] Kalen: Is it the page speed booster? Is that what it’s called? Yeah, the hyper node. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Awesome, man. That’s really cool. Okay, quick meta. That was not a

[00:59:45] Willem: cool thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:46] Kalen: Quick meta question.

Uh, how I’m I’m cool with longer episodes. I know some people like kind of limiting to an hour episode, right. Mm-hmm but, [01:00:00] um, but I’m I have, I mean, I have time. I’m good. So I’m curious what you think about going over. We went over an hour last time, so I’m cool with that, but I’m curious your thoughts.

[01:00:14] Willem: If at this point, you’re listening and you’re tired.

Pause, and come back tomorrow, come back. Just pause it. Yeah.

[01:00:23] Kalen: Great. Um, totally man. Yeah, no, cause I think in the past I’ve done content overload where like, I, I did daily podcasts and stuff like that. And I think obviously this isn’t daily, so that’s good. But, um, but yeah. Um,

[01:00:39] Willem: cool. I often listen to podcasts, uh, not, not in a single run, but just bits by bits when I have time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s when I drive my car and that’s a, that’s a 50 minute drive, so I can’t listen to a full podcast in my car anyway. Yeah, yeah,

[01:00:55] Kalen: yeah, totally. Okay. Uh, what, what do we [01:01:00] got next? I see we’ve got recession topics, Oracle commerce. Uh,

[01:01:06] Willem: any, yeah. How much, how much do you know about Oracle commerce?

Because, um, I didn’t know that much about it until.

[01:01:14] Kalen: Very little. Yeah, I know there, you wanna talk about the Smith Bucklin thing? I know we had started on that last time and then I do wanna leave it alone.

[01:01:27] Willem: uh, we can, we can, but do we, do we now skip over Oracle commerce?

[01:01:34] Kalen: no, no, no. Let’s do Oracle. Let’s do, since we started it, let’s do Oracle. Sorry, I’m jump. I’m jumping. I’m getting jumpy.

[01:01:40] Willem: Yeah, let’s say the bare minimum about it. Uh, there was some news last week, which I haven’t been able toed. I didn’t see any additional sources, but someone heard from someone heard from multiple sources that ado, uh, Oracle commerce clouds were, uh, had.

Clock being pulled. [01:02:00] Um, and all that I know is that Oracle commerce is competing. They’re on the level to compete with Adobe B2B and Salesforce, I guess. Um, and, uh, right. Yeah, it was interesting to me to see that they, they just, they, they seemingly announce not to continue working on it. They’re not bringing out a new roadmap.

They’re going to maybe sunset it or just not updated anymore and keep it running for as long as they have customers, uh, which is extraordinary, I think, for a product of that size mm-hmm , um, And I put it, I, I put it in a dock on the, the hat, uh, the heading recession where I also put Shopify layoffs. Mm.

Right. And, uh, it, it was, it was in the [01:03:00] same week that the news of, uh, Oracle and, uh, Shopify shrinking their employees.

[01:03:06] Kalen: Um, right, right. So

[01:03:09] Willem: it felt like there was a bit of a movement, uh, people anticipating to, uh, recession and, um, yeah, it’s crazy times. I don’t know how, how your shopping expenses are your grocery expenses, but here I’m seeing 50% higher prices for our weekly groceries.

Yeah. Uh, yeah. Things

[01:03:35] Kalen: are up. Yeah. It’s kind of brutal the recession in general. Um, or the inflation and all that kind of stuff is, is, um, Is kind of brutal. I, um, I have a hard, I mean, I have a hard time imagining, uh, entire commerce product closes down from the recession. I mean, I don’t think, I mean, it’d have to be a really bad recession.

The layoffs, I think you could probably, [01:04:00] uh, attribute to a recession, but, um, mm-hmm, , there’s gotta be something weird going on if they just completely closed Oracle commerce. That’s so wild. Um,

[01:04:14] Willem: yeah. Um, the Oracle probably they, they have reasons that they had coming probably. Um, but it would be interesting to, to hear from someone that’s, uh, that hasn’t worked with Oracle and knows a bit more, a bit more about that.

Yeah. I, but I wasn’t able to find more it’s so entirely out of my social bubble. Yeah.

[01:04:40] Kalen: Yeah. Um, Um, so I don’t know if you know Aaron Shehan. Yeah.

[01:04:46] Willem: He, he, uh, he reshared on LinkedIn. Yeah. Where, where I

[01:04:50] Kalen: found a post. Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I’m looking at. It, it was his, it was his repost. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So he, um, he obviously was with classy Lama mag into Magento, and then [01:05:00] he, um, and then he big almost now.

Right. He’s at big cumber. Now, before that he was with, um, Merkel he was doing, he, he went from doing a lot of Magental stuff, obviously some big commerce stuff at classy. And then I think he got into doing a lot of Salesforce, commerce stuff, and now he’s at, um, big commerce. I didn’t really, for some reason I thought he was a solutions architect, but I’m just seeing he’s the director of competitive strategy, which is, um, which is interesting before that at Merkel, which was D E G I dunno if you knew anybody from D EEG, but I, there was some really cool guys I knew from there.

And, um, so he was the director of solutions delivery there. So all that to say, and I’m just kind of looking at the comments, like he’s probably the guy that would, that would know, um, quite a bit about this. Um,

[01:05:51] Willem: yeah, DG looks like he did a lot of Salesforce stuff, but now he’s into, because, um, yeah. Um, [01:06:00] I don’t know if he had experience with, uh, Oracle, you just found it interesting.

Yeah. On the, on the

[01:06:11] Kalen: topic. Sorry. I was just, sorry. Um, the, uh, I dunno if you know Isaiah Bollinger with trellis, have you heard of no, maybe not. Um, um, they, um, they’re a decent size agency also, you know, did a lot of Magento in the PA I I’ve done a couple podcasts with him, but, um, he’s a, he’s a good dude.

And um,

[01:06:33] Willem: oh yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, for sure. I, I didn’t quite catch that, but I know, uh, yeah, I know him, you know, the podcast coming up next week. I, I read right. Yeah.

[01:06:43] Kalen: Yeah. We were just talking, uh, yesterday, um, about the Gartner report and we were talking, yeah, we were kind of talking about, I don’t know if he specifically has a lot of experience with, um, with, uh, with Oracle commerce, but he, they, they focus a lot on [01:07:00] B2B and stuff like that.

And I think he has a lot of experience with a number of different platforms. Um, and so we’re gonna kind of like roast the Gartner report. I think, I think be it’s gonna be kinda kind of interesting. So that should be kind of fun.

[01:07:16] Willem: Yeah. What I, what I really dislike the Gartner report is so influential and the development of the products like yeah.

Uh, you can really see that platforms are implementing features or growing to a certain direction. Just to hit that sweet spot on the Gartner quadrant. Um, and they dictate composable commerce. They, they predict that everything is moving in that direction. And I don’t, I don’t, I. Yeah, I have thoughts about composable commerce.

We’ve talked about that before. Yeah. And of course it’s different. There’s different approaches [01:08:00] to it. If you define it as composable commerce and it becomes part of your strategy and tooling around it. But as I said before, we’ve, we’ve composed microservices for a long time, also with monoliths. So that’s not, not much new, but they, um, they set kind of the, the specs or the, the, they, they define the rules for what your technology stack should look like.

And then everyone just follows because next year they need to be in a sweet spot on the Gartner. Yeah. Quadrants.

[01:08:31] Kalen: It’s a strange thing because people say, pay so much attention to it. I guess it’s at a certain Le a certain level in the C-suite of certain size companies pay a lot of attention to it than those of us that are in.

whatever community we’re in open source. Um, we’re not, we’re not in the C suite of a hundred million dollar companies, whatever level that we’re in. We all think [01:09:00] it’s totally ridiculous. And I think we’re mostly right. I mean, I’m sure there’s some mean, I, I mean, I’m sure there’s some grain of truth to some of it, but it’s, it, it it’s like Google search results, you know, everybody’s trying to hack it, you know, and I don’t, I mean, I don’t know this is, this is sort of what I assume is that like, you know, they kind of are, cause I remember hearing that like the e-commerce platforms would have somebody that sort of has a point of contact with whoever’s doing the Gartner report or that they, they kind of communicate, you know what I mean?

And I don’t know, it just seems like this. Funny game that they play to get a certain position in there and it’s not really truly objective. Um, so I, you know, but

[01:09:53] Willem: yeah, I don’t really, it, it, it plays a certain market that, which is quite high up. And [01:10:00] I think, uh, for the typical SMB merchant, I think it’s hurtful when a platform decides to purely serve that magical, that, that, that, that quadrant the Gardner quadrant and, and skip the it’s another religion we’re talking about

[01:10:20] Kalen: religions.

It’s another, it’s another little mini religion.

[01:10:25] Willem: Yeah. I mean, if that means that you’re skipping such a large open source community and their needs, because you need to gain that position in a quadrant. Um, yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s hurtful for a lot of businesses. Yeah. Yeah. And then the, the Shopify layoff, I think that’s, that’s the typical effect of, so they, the, I, I read that they said they made prognosis before or during Corona COVID and, uh, they projected the growth that they were seeing, that that would [01:11:00] hold on for longer time.

And they now realized that growth wasn’t as big. So they, they hired in advance to, to write that wave and, uh, they needed to, to, uh, cut expenses there because they hired to over equally mm-hmm . So I don’t know if that’s, uh, a sign of, uh, of recession, but at least, uh, it’s a sign that the eCommerce market is no longer growing as hard as when we’re at peak COVID times.

Yeah.

[01:11:33] Kalen: Well, and I’m kind of just, um, I’m kind of like way, like things have kind of leveled out, whether you’re talking about eCommerce real estate, you know, thi like, like Austin real estate is kind of leveled out, but I’m still expecting things to take a dive at some point. And it doesn’t even me too. Yeah.

It doesn’t even seem li I mean, I guess Shopify firing a thousand people is a dive, [01:12:00] but then of course they, they did the Clavio investment for a hundred mil, a hundred million right after. So it’s like, what, what it’s like, what, what is even happening here? Um, but I don’t know. Those are kind of two separate, I mean, I don’t really know much about this, but those are kind of two separate things.

I mean, mm-hmm, , I don’t know.

[01:12:28] Willem: So, yeah. Um, it’s, it’s still, still strange times. Um, I’m wondering if, how COVID evolves from here and what the winter will look like. And, uh, winter is coming, there an ongoing war, which is so, so deeply saddening that this is happening today and, uh, we’re all affected by it, but, uh, nothing comparable by the misery that [01:13:00] Ukrainians are, are going through right now.

Um, yeah. Yeah. But, um, seems like we’re not at the end of it yet. And, uh, economies are, are falling.

[01:13:13] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and it’s like, um, you know, you, at some point you kind of have to, it’s like, You kind of have to move on with life, you know, like you have to, um, not to be glib about it. I mean, even when you think about yourself dying, like you have to on some level realize that when you die, people are gonna move on, you know, like, yeah.

Hopefully they’ll cry for a little bit and then, and then people are gonna have to just move on with their lives. Otherwise they can’t function, you know? Um,

[01:13:56] Willem: yeah. We, we were really a bit in a shock beginning of the [01:14:00] year when the war started and, uh, we kind of holded all our social media and everything.

We started donating to Ukraine. Yeah. Um, and, um, we have regular contact with people from Ukraine, so we kind of know like how, how they see. How they see the international uh, what’s what’s happening internationally. Yeah. And the way we see it currently is that Ukraines are not helped by us, um, us not doing our regular business our day to day business.

Right. Um, and by, in our case, in the magenta world, Ukraine is plays a very important role in the magenta community as their core development team came from there. And today, a lot of those core developers are working at agencies and companies in Ukraine. Yeah. So [01:15:00] there still a really big driving force, um, to the Magento ecosystem.

Yeah. And if, if we don’t keep business going as usual, they lose work. And we saw at the beginning of the war, that a lot of them got projects canceled, and we made an effort of getting those agencies. So max, our work and with Hiva, we have the supplier page where you can find an agency and we put Ukraine to the top there.

Whenever I get an email from merchant asking for a developer, I always first suggest the agency from Ukraine. Yeah. Um, so we’re trying to help in, in any way that we can. Um, but yeah, we try to validate, like, it feels so weird to be at a conference and having fun and partying while, while that is going on in Ukraine.

Um, yeah. But yeah, we, we. We’re helping in a way we’re helping Ukrainian people by [01:16:00] keeping Magento, uh, prosperous , um, yeah. Keeping it healthy and making sure that their jobs are secured and we have a healthy ecosystem. Yeah. So, uh, that’s the way we try to contribute to that and be respectful to what’s happening there.

Yeah.

[01:16:16] Kalen: Um, yeah. It’s yeah. It’s, it’s a little counterintuitive sometimes you think about it, but, but, uh, the way you laid it out, that makes, makes perfect sense. Um, well, why don’t we wrap it up? Any, any last things we wanna, we wanna touch on here?

[01:16:41] Willem: Well, we did promise to talk a bit about the association.

[01:16:44] Kalen: Okay. Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do a proper. That would be hilarious. If we, every single episode we kind of, the cliff kind of go, we kind of go, all right, well, let’s not talk about it. Okay. Well, and then we talk about it a little bit, then we just do that every single [01:17:00] time for like 10 weeks in a row.

Um, alright. So yeah, last time we left off on it, you were saying that you had some, I was kind of saying like, listen, this is probably a standard line item. I know it seems like a lot of money. It’s probably just very standard and it’s kind of not a big deal. And then you were saying you kind of had some specific thoughts there.

Yeah.

[01:17:25] Willem: Um,

so the thing is the mid chance Associa me chance association. Um, As a company in a sense that needs to be run. Um, and there’s people actually working in the organization that, um, that are coming in through Smith blin. So there was, um, the financial statements, uh, were [01:18:00] published from the association and, uh, uh, on Twitter people, um, talked about the 900,000 euros dollars that went to SmithBucklin over the course of the first two, three years.

Mm-hmm , um, which seems like a ver, which is a very high amount. Uh, it’s a lot of money at least. Um, but tho that number wasn’t split out into, into details where, where that money went to. And, um, the, I think the important thing that to realize is that, uh, Smith Bucklin, um, handles a lot of the infrastructure and a lot of the publishing and marketing and, um, they, they set audio agendas for meetings and attend all of the meetings and write, um, [01:19:00] uh, write the summaries after the meetings.

Um, So there’s, there’s a big chunk of money going to newsletters being sent out every month. Um, or big chunk. I mean, that’s, that’s one of the costs that they have. They have content services for publishing articles, uh, to, to three times a month. So

[01:19:20] Kalen: those newsletters that I see and completely ignore those are, those are not cheap is what is what we’re saying.

Those

[01:19:27] Willem: emails. Well, they cost money because they’re being redacted. Uh, yeah. Um, someone’s someone is formatting those, uh, that’s being paid for the service that’s being used to, to send it. They have a, they have a platform for the website that is actually a, a community tool where I think there’s a lot of things that that platform can do.

That’s not being leveraged right now. Mm-hmm um, But that’s one of the things that I, I, I just had one board meeting so far and it [01:20:00] was mostly, uh, the topic was mostly around, uh, the new board members welcome, welcoming them and talking about, uh, the work that’s being done on the open source taskforce, uh, and why that’s, how that is going to move.

Um, so there was a little bit of talk about the financials and, um, how that’s moving forward. Uh, but I, I just got access to, to a bit more of the documentation of the association and to see how, how the organization is, is built up. And one of the things that we’ve talked about is, um, uh, uh, making effort of the, the transparency, um, Of the association and what they do and how the organization is structured and everything.

Right. Um, so what, what I think a good first step is that there was a very lengthy block post about, um, uh, the process of the election. Um, mm-hmm, , uh, [01:21:00] And, um, Andreas, uh, uh, from student, um, he wrote that blog post, uh, he was on the committee. Um, but for we’ve discussed, uh, that we should, we should try and, and bring out news as much as possible.

And, and, and explain what what’s going on on the inside of the association. Mm-hmm . And I think one of the things that they, they could do better, or we could do better is, uh, explain how these, these costs are, are built up. Um, and I, I wanna have a good look at, at these services, like the one that they use for publishing the website, because it’s costly and it takes long to have, uh, after changing changes, um, being made to the website, they actually need to email someone to ask, to add an agenda item to the homepage.

Um,

[01:21:50] Kalen: a little energizing, the whole, the whole situation is

[01:21:54] Willem: Morey. Um, I think, uh, since they’re not leveraging the, the, the [01:22:00] membership, uh, features that they, that, that platform offers and they, they put that into Paton, which I also think could be done in a, maybe in a more efficient way. But, uh, that website could be, were press standard WordPress team that you set up in an hour and just migrate the content and you’d be off, uh, a thousand X cheaper than, than what’s currently being paid.

What you’re

[01:22:25] Kalen: saying is you could have, you could have done in a weekend what they charged 900 grand for that’s what we’re saying

[01:22:32] Willem: here. Yeah. I mean, it’s, um, that’s a little bit of

[01:22:36] Kalen: a look like, um,

[01:22:39] Willem: yeah, but these things, I mean, at that scale, you have certain expectations when you set up an organization and you think, well, we need this system.

These are the requirements we need to do memberships and, and payments and everything. So this is the best suited platform for that, that we’re expecting 50,000 people to join this platform. And then three years later, there’s maybe 500 people and [01:23:00] they’re not using the platform for membership. So right.

Maybe we should evaluate if that’s still the best platform and, and cut some costs there. Um, right. But yeah, um, this, it, it’s all, it’s all still quite new to me being on the inside of the association, but I’m planning to get a lot of. Questions answered. Um, and, uh, and see, as my understanding of the association grows, I would like to also, um, publish that somewhere and make sure that it, it becomes more transparent.

Nice. Um, so that’s one of my missions. I, I guess we can, we can back to that, uh, at a later point. Yeah, that

[01:23:45] Kalen: makes sense. So just generally more transparency, some of these things are, um, like I, I can understand why they’re using tools that are a little more enterprisey things are not cheap. Um, and maybe if [01:24:00] we can get some of these things a little more transparent, we can go, okay, Hey guys, instead of spending $5,000 for somebody to send out an email, you know, let’s, let’s pay Kalin five bucks to do it for us, kind

[01:24:12] Willem: of, kind of a now, uh, I mean, in the end it’s an organization and an organization needs to be organized and someone needs to actually do the work.

And since the board members are all volunteers and, and we meet once a month for an hour, there’s nothing you can do in that time. And we can, we can go into committees and, and have meetings and, and, and, and, uh, make progress there. But that’s not doing the administration and planning and, and running the organization itself.

Um, and all the culture publishing and everything. Yeah. I think it’s one of the scenarios. So it would be a big restructure to, to, to do this differently because who else would do it? If, if Smith Bucklin wasn’t doing it, [01:25:00] you would need to hire the people to do the jobs that are currently being done. Right.

And the issue currently is that no one knows what jobs are being done. So yeah. Why does it cost money? Why does work is being done? Well, what’s the work it’s not transparent. We don’t know. Yeah. So it starts with transparency and then we can better understand where, where time is being spent and, uh, what a money goes to.

[01:25:22] Kalen: Yeah. Um, yeah, I think that’s a good approach. I had something I was gonna say, but then I forgot it. All right. Well, I think that, that was good. I think that was a good, I think we did it. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. If I can be brutally honest. Um, yeah. Uh, I think it’s a case where everybody has the best of intentions.

but nothing’s getting done, not nothing in the literal sense, but for whatever reason, then I don’t know what it is, but it’s like, um, things are not moving forward in the, in.

Yeah.

[01:25:58] Willem: And I’m, I’m trying to get a [01:26:00] grip on that and see what, how that could potentially be fixed. Um, yeah. I don’t know if it’s partly, uh, lacking independence or lacking, uh, maybe it needs an actual leader that that takes, uh, takes the lead.

Uh, I’m trying really

[01:26:21] Kalen: hard not to use a certain phrase that you don’t like. Yeah. You know what I’m thinking?

[01:26:26] Willem: You know what I’m thinking? Well, uh, I, I can’t be, I, I can’t be that person for multiple. I couldn’t be that for HS for our own organization that we set up because I am. I am leading hooah and there’s so much, I think that needs to be done at a hooah end.

I think, I think,

[01:26:45] Kalen: I think the key is ownership, right? Like if, if somebody had the ability to actually make things happen, the ability to go, okay, uh, spending too much money on this thing, email, here’s how we’re gonna do it. Like, [01:27:00] but I’m, I’m assuming that you’ve got a committee of people. They all have the best intentions.

Nobody really, nobody really has ownership. They all have their own businesses, their own things they’re focused on, you know, and I’m sure they all have the best intentions, but if you had some way. For a person or a small, smaller group of people to go all here’s needs to get done. Let’s actually, mm-hmm, start getting things done efficiently.

Um, I, I don’t know how that happens and I, and I could, yeah, it’s easy to criticize, you know, it’s hard to actually do deal with an organization at that scale. So, so yeah, it’s easy for me to criticize, to actually do it is a, is what you’re doing, which I think is cool.

[01:27:42] Willem: And the, the difficult thing is, um, the difficult thing is that Smith Bolin is, is doing the actual work, but they don’t have that.

Full understanding of the community and the product, because they’re not, they’re not coming from the community. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:28:00] As a, someone that that’s touched the product for for 10 years, they’re like a,

[01:28:04] Kalen: they’re like a hired hand, so to speak, they’re just,

[01:28:07] Willem: yeah, they’re doing, I’m saying that they’re, they’re doing what they do that they’re doing that poorly, but I think what the ma needs to, to make progress and be more successful would be someone that does understand the community and magenta, of course, that of course has the time and the funds, ideally he would be hired for X amount of hours a week to organize it, to take the lead there and, um, yep.

Yeah, somebody

[01:28:37] Kalen: that, so that’s, uh, somebody that somebody that gets the community, somebody that mm-hmm cares about it can get things done and then give them the keys. If, if mm-hmm , if all they can do is, is give their opinion and I’m sure there’s, I’m sure every single person on the association could do that.

If they had the keys, if they were able, if they had the [01:29:00] ability to make the decisions to do to do stuff. Um, so there’s a lot of people that could do it, but you kind of need somebody to just start doing, doing stuff. But, but yeah. Um, you said me that gets the community and, and can just do it, you know, um, I think you said that a little more eloquently than I did, but

I’m working on only a few hours of sleep.

So, um, on that note, this is a lot of fun. Um, I think we’re gonna wrap up. Thanks everybody for tuning in. Well, a pleasure as always. And, uh, likewise, thank you, sir. And we’ll see you next week.

[01:29:42] Willem: Thanks for listening.

[01:29:44] Kalen: Let me stop here. .