In this episode, Kalen sits down with Willem Wigman, the Executive Director at Hyva Themes.


[00:00:00] Willem: If you ask me, we’ve been doing that for 10 years, Magento always has been composable a lot of people used it as a composable system. If you integrate ACH as a PIM and no vision as a E R P and you have search coming from CVU or from Sensi, from Adobe and your emails come from MailChimp at Cedar, that’s all composed.

[00:00:41] Kalen: I had this kind of realization recently that I should just kind of focus on audio like that, that always was kind of what, you know, that was what worked in the past with ma talk, you know? Um,

[00:00:51] Willem: did you, yeah, I was wondering about that. Did you, did you start off purely as phone calls? So to say without, without [00:01:00] video, when you started doing that with, uh, Philip.

[00:01:03] Kalen: yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, no, it was just, um, it was just audio for, for years. Um, um, Yeah. And then, you know, then at some point it was like, oh, you know, video is, you know, you can, you can do more with video. And so you kind of just assume video is, is better. But, um, I don’t know. And I, and a lot of the, um, a lot of the podcasts that I like to listen to are like audio only as well.

So it’s like, well, what the heck? You know, give it,

[00:01:34] Willem: I can,

if I can. I always look up the podcasts on YouTube.

[00:01:40] Kalen: I do that too. Well. I, I definitely, I, I always at least look them up and then sometimes I’ll watch some of them sometimes I’ll watch a lot of them on YouTube, but, um, but my D like, if I’m like, if I’m, if I’m walking or if I’m doing something, which is probably the majority of the time that I listen to [00:02:00] podcast, if I’m washing the dishes or whatever, then I’m I’m.

So I’m still primarily listen to audio, but I will, I will always, you do always wanna look it up and connect a visual, um, But do you like you just watch and tie everything on full, like, like a hun, like a hundred percent YouTube for your podcast consumption?

[00:02:21] Willem: yeah. Um, I. Um, I also watch a lot of podcasts while doing dishes. Uh, if I have, um, I could have a lot more podcast actually, but, um, to, to, to consume so to say, but, uh, I like it, uh, it makes me feel part of, uh, part of the room and I, I like the facial PR uh, official expressions and the interaction. Um, and, um, yeah, just I’m, I’m so used to, I think, uh, I’m not really a phone call person.

I don’t often call people without video. Um, but I, I call all the [00:03:00] time. I mean, I have video conferences literally all day long so I’m, I’m very used to the format now to, to, um, watch people’s faces.

[00:03:11] Kalen: Gotcha. Gotcha. Um, it’s funny because I, the other, the other thing is that I really like, like, I’ll, I have a few people I’ll talk to on the phone, um, from time to time, just a regular audio phone call. And, and those are always my favorite, like calls. Um, and, uh, that, that was the other, yeah, that was the other thing for me.

And like, I, I have this one friend who’s like, let’s talk on hangout video. And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no. maybe, maybe I’m just, maybe I’m just old or something. Are you, you’re like, you’re probably, I know you’re younger than me. I don’t know how much younger you are. You’re probably 30 you’re in your thirties, right?

[00:03:47] Willem: I am, but that’s, that’s a wide shot.

[00:03:50] Kalen: so why you’re like I’m 58 I just have good skin cuz I use sunscreen

[00:03:58] Willem: yeah, I know you [00:04:00] are older, but I also don’t know how much older you are, but I

[00:04:03] Kalen: I don’t. First of all, I don’t appreciate. I don’t like how you said, I know you are older. I didn’t like the intonation in your voice. When you said that I found, I found that offensive. I found that very offensive. I know that you’re older.

Why are you gonna say it like that? Why are you gonna say it like that?

Um, your, well, you, your one generation hat in the Magento, uh, world for me, you were there before me.

Right, right.

and that usually means you are, you, you got a bit more experience under your belt.

I don’t like the way you said experience under your belt. I don’t like the way you’re saying anything, man. You saying everything with this? With this tone? No, I was just kidding. Um,

Uh, you want me completely Mon monotone. Okay. I will try not to

Yes. anymore. you talk about age experience, [00:05:00] you know, when you talk about these types of things, you know, tone it down, tone it and I’m, I’m toned down to, to baseline. So I think you, or there you have it intonation. I, I think I can’t do it.

I feel,

do it first sentence.

I feel a lot. I gotta yell at my kids again. This is not gonna, we’re throwing stuff at the windows. throwing things at the windows. Welcome to my life. You don’t have kids yet. Do you?

[00:05:35] Willem: man.

[00:05:37] Kalen: Yeah.

[00:05:37] Willem: a six year old daughter.

[00:05:39] Kalen: Oh, I’m sorry. Oh my gosh. How did I forget that dude?

[00:05:44] Willem: I don’t know. I don’t

[00:05:45] Kalen: I’m I don’t I’m I’m lost, shit.

seem like an irresponsible person who could never have kids. Um,

[00:05:58] Willem: or, or you think I’m that young? [00:06:00] That I, I, I can’t reproduce yet.

[00:06:03] Kalen: are you let me see 30. Yeah. exactly. Um, 34

as June, almost. Yeah.

in, in, in June. Your birthday’s in June.

Yeah. I actually, I had my birthday while I was at meet magenta UK and I, I, I did it really silently because I didn’t wanna have all the Fu

Right.

I was, I was at a meet magenta party while I had my birthday and happily only a few people knew because I don’t like

I hate it. I hate birthdays. I hate them because you get this expectation that people are gonna do nice things for you. and then, then they inevitably don’t and then you’re disappointed and angry. And I just, I’d rather, it just be a regular day. I don’t need all these expectations in my life. You know, I have enough, I have enough [00:07:00] disappointment as it is

how do you like hosting parties being the host of your birthday?

Horrible. I don’t like I don’t host any, I don’t like to host anything. Like I, if I have two people over to the house podcast, I can host cuz they’re virtual technology based anything with people in the room. Very, very bad. I get all, I get all nervous about all, everything being in the right place and all stressed out.

I can’t relax at all. Yeah. I’m not, I’m not good. What about you? Are you big? Are you a big party hoster?

No, no, I really dislike. Um, I. Everyone has a good time except for you. So I don’t understand people that really enjoy running around getting people, food, and drinks and, and, and going from one nice city to the other. I like to attend birthdays, but I don’t like to host my, especially at home where it’s all your, your stuff [00:08:00] and you know, where everything is and everyone comes ask you.

Um, I would, I would, I would like to host a birthday if it’s like all in all in organized, like you go to a place and that’s people serving drinks. That that would be great.

Basically drinks are the key. Like whether it’s a party or not, you just want to drink. You want to go somewhere, drink, not have to carry food around and,

[00:08:31] Willem: Yeah, but it’s also, it’s also overwhelming having so many people that come, especially, uh, Yeah, especially for you and you, you feel like you should talk to all of them, give them a bit of your attention before they leave. So, um, you you’re so divided and it doesn’t really make you present.

[00:08:52] Kalen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I really, I think that I, sometimes I enjoy like a group dynamic, but I [00:09:00] think increasingly I enjoy like a one-on-one conversation with somebody and that’s, that’s kind of it, like, I don’t know what it is, but even if there’s three people involved, it goes downhill fast.

we, we, we hosted our own little conference back in. I think it was may, uh, HIFA camp.

Yeah. I saw, I saw a picture of that, man.

I grossly underestimated the amount of talking that I would need to, the amount of socializing that I would need to do. While there, because we, we, it was an unconference format. So bar camp kindish um,

Yeah.

a lot of improvisation and I didn’t assume that I would need to lead a lot of the discussions.

[00:09:50] Willem: We had these, uh, uh, round table discussions and someone in yet turn out, someone needs to delete that still. So you get the conversation going and someone throws [00:10:00] up some questions, et cetera. So, and, um, from the moment I got there, it’s like people came all the way from, from Poland and Spain. Um, uh, two, two Germany.

Uh, we only had 80 seats, 80 tickets for the, for the event. But, uh, from the moment I arrived at, it were people like anxious to talk to me and, um, which was fantastic. And I was super happy that everyone came all that way, but it felt a bit like, um, hosting your own birthday as in. You constantly, uh, wanna talk to people because you, you look forward to speaking to them, but yeah, 80 people to talk to over a span of two days.

That’s, um, that’s a lot if you’re also hosting the conference and like doing the introduction talks and everything, but, um,

[00:10:47] Kalen: You’re like, I liked you people better when you were just avatars on a screen when you’re

[00:10:55] Willem: asynchronous asynchronous discussions, like,

[00:10:59] Kalen: synchronous [00:11:00] avatars on a screen. Yeah,

[00:11:01] Willem: yeah.

[00:11:02] Kalen: that’s funny. Um, I, you know, I had this weird realization that like talking, um, because I was thinking about how I like talking, like, like again, without video, just audio, um, Uh, and I had this, this realization that like, it’s a, it’s actually a, it’s a technological achievement to be able to talk to somebody without looking at them.

And then you, you like right now, I’m just sitting on the patio. I’m just looking off into where, wherever, I don’t have to worry about eye contact or anything like that. And like, you, you couldn’t, you couldn’t do that before technology. So it’s kind of a, it’s kind of a, it’s a stupidly simple thing, but it just, somehow it occurred to me that it was like a, something that regular, you know, people can’t do without technology.

[00:11:50] Willem: Before technology, you couldn’t have a conversation without eye contact. That’s what you’re

[00:11:55] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah. BA yeah, basic, like, I guess, I guess the train of thought was [00:12:00] like, audio is the most basic form of te of conversation. And then video is more advanced. It’s like better, it’s more technological. It’s, it’s more technologically advanced. It was like, wait a minute. Actually video is just sort of a recreation of in person.

You see people and talk in person and actually being able to talk without seeing people is something that you couldn’t do without technology was kind of the, the trade of thought. you’re like, dude, you’re like, dude, I could not care less about your video list conversation,

[00:12:36] Willem: no, I was, I was, I was thinking about, um, this, um, a sketch, you would make these, uh, phones with a, a can with a wire in between. would

[00:12:50] Kalen: Oh, all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:12:55] Willem: uh, I, I was, I was wondering if that counts as technology, because [00:13:00] with that, with that, you

[00:13:01] Kalen: Well it does. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well that does, I mean, te like really techno technology is just another word for a tool. You know, I, we, we said tend to think of technology in terms of like digital digital tools, but like pretty much anything that’s a tool is, is, uh, is technology. So, so yeah, that was the

[00:13:24] Willem: how’s life, how’s life for you, Kaylin. How, what, um, what’s what’s the, what’s the Costa Rica situation.

[00:13:31] Kalen: what’s the vibe of . Uh, yeah, so we’ve been out here for like two weeks and, um, sorry. And, uh, we’re actually, it’s funny. My, my oldest daughters has been sick for like four, well, my wife and I got my wife got sick and then I got sick. Just like, not nothing too crazy, just like a, like a, like a cold and like a minor fever type of thing.

And, uh, and then I was sick for a day and then my wife was sick for three days. And then my [00:14:00] middle daughter was a little bit sick for like a day. And then my oldest daughter has been like, kind of in the house for like three days. So I feel bad, but, um, But yeah, we’ve been out for like two, yeah. In, in Costa Rica.

Yeah. Yeah. Here in, in, in, in paradise at the beach. Um, but yeah, we’re out, we’ve been out here for like two weeks and we have, um, two weeks left to go and, uh,

there

yeah, it’s sort of, yeah. So we came, I came here first, um, I guess two, two years ago, I think. And, um, I did like a surf camp and then my wife came out and we, and then, um, we were here for, for like a month and then, um, we, um, And then, and then we came back with our, our, this is our fourth trip.

So we’ve in the last, I think two years we’ve we’ve come here. So we came here together and then we came with the kids. Um, and [00:15:00] then this is our, oh. And then we came together again a third time, just the two of us. And then this is our second time with the kids. Um, so yeah, I was full on like, after my first trip, I was like, I need to move here.

This is it. This is my new life. It’s it’s over. Um, and then we came, uh and then we came with the, um, sorry, one sec, man. I have a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, what’s that called fly? Sorry, it’s gross. And then, um, We came here, uh, with the kids for two months last summer. Oh, like, we’re gonna move here.

Let’s do like a, let’s do like a, you know, a really long trip to feel it out. Figure out recon, exactly. Figure out where we wanna move, where we wanna live. I was very like fly by the seat of our pants. So I was like, let’s, my wife was like, let’s plan everything ahead of time. I was like, Nope, we’ll get an Airbnb.

And we’ll move from one Airbnb to another. And we’ll just find the, you know, the best place we’ll go explore. And it was, it was [00:16:00] just a lot, uh we’re on the Pacific coast. Um, so the city’s called Tamarindo Taite though. And, um,

[00:16:09] Willem: So it’s that east or

[00:16:10] Kalen: kind of a popular beach beach area. Oh, west west. Yeah.

[00:16:16] Willem: west. So that’s the salt

[00:16:17] Kalen: coast is the best. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah,

Is there an ocean? That’s not a salt ocean.

I don’t,

I thought all the oceans fairly

there’s, there’s a difference, at least in, well, maybe I’m, I’m seeing it wrong, but there’s a difference in, in the kind of, uh, uh, Aqua life that you find. So if you dive on the E side, then you find a lot of turtles and, and such, and if you dive on the west side, you’ll find huge mantras and sharks and, uh, a lot more dolphins.

[00:16:54] Willem: And, um, so, um, I, I went diving on both, [00:17:00] no, only on the west side, only on the west side, I was on the east side as well, but, uh, on the west side, I went to this, uh, uh, nature reserve. That’s an island, uh, on the coast near cocoa, a bit more north. And, um, it was fantastic. I saw, I saw, uh, Mont on the water Ray Ray man, uh,

[00:17:21] Kalen: Aha. Manes. Yeah.

[00:17:23] Willem: yeah.

Monte. Yeah. Like, like, I dunno, four, four meters span, wide gigantic. And I lay on the ocean floor between sharks and, uh, um, yeah, it was fantastic.

[00:17:35] Kalen: That’s, you’re insane, man. People that like to go around sharks are just crazy.

[00:17:41] Willem: Not all, not all sharks are, um, are a threat to humans.

[00:17:46] Kalen: no, I know. I know. I know. I

[00:17:48] Willem: most are super

[00:17:49] Kalen: it’s. Yeah, I saw, I saw a video. I saw a video on TikTok the other day. This guy he’s like fishing and [00:18:00] there’s like a, a small shark, like a, like a baby shark. I mean, it was probably a foot or two long. Um, and, and he was, he had caught it on the line and he was reaching down with his hand to pick it up and he kind of put his hand in his mouth, like, and then all of a sudden he’s like struggling and the shark kind of bites him and he pulls his hand up and he goes, I just lost my damn picky.

Oh,

he goes, he goes, dammit I just lost my

pinky way he said it. And then one of the comments was like, he sounded like he dropped his phone in the water. Like the way he said the way he said it, it sounded more like an annoyance Like, I would’ve been screaming for the top of my lungs, but.

[00:18:48] Willem: uh, you can only do that 10 times,

[00:18:51] Kalen: yeah. , it’s true. That’s true. You read out of,

once you’re, once you’re halfway, it gets a [00:19:00] lot harder because you are kind of, uh um,

depending,

Harding if you’re halfway down. Yeah.

Yeah. Although maybe, you know, maybe if you had three fingers on each hand, you know, three and two, you, it would be better than five and zero,

It’s rough. Have you ever broken a finger or, or like have

like never a,

injured?

I’ve never really injured a finger. I’ve broken my wrist in my hand. Um, but no, never a finger now that I think about

[00:19:34] Willem: You, you never know how valuable your limbs are until you hurt them. It’s like your pinky toe. If you hurt your pinky toe and you can’t use it, then you find out that you actually use it for balancing or whatever.

[00:19:47] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah. So I did yesterday. I stepped on a or the, the day before yesterday I stepped on it must have been a B or something like that, but it like stung my toe at night and I was freaking out and my toe, it’s not my pinky, but my middle [00:20:00] to, or my right next to my, uh, pinky, pinky minus one is, um, is like swollen

And, and I’m surprised that, like you said, like how conscious I am of the fact that it’s swollen, you just feel it all it’s, it’s just, um, yeah, you forget, you forget how much the pinky matters, which leads us into very gracefully. Our topic of discussing Magento, the pinky toe of the eCommerce ecosystem these days.

Am I right?

[00:20:30] Willem: That’s a Fantastics way. So natural

[00:20:32] Kalen: Yeah. Yeah. It’s what I do. It’s what I do. It’s what I’ve been trained. I have a very particular set of skills and, um, that I’ve, that I’ve honed over a very, a very long time. um,

[00:20:46] Willem: we do, I’m still, I’m still curious. Are you, so are you planning to move entirely to Costa Rica?

[00:20:52] Kalen: no, no. Um, I, the fir the first time I came here, I, if you would’ve asked [00:21:00] me, I would’ve said yes. And then again, we came with the family and it’s just a lot, there’s just a lot more moving parts. Like there’s a lot of things that are very obvious to most people, which me, I have to experience, you know, the, the pain in, you know, in person to realize.

But yeah, there’s just a lot more going on when you have kids and it’s just a lot more complicated and stuff. So, um,

[00:21:22] Willem: they adapt like their home schools? Right. So you’re, you’re freeish to go what you want.

[00:21:30] Kalen: that, yeah, that’s the crazy thing is that we really, we really could, I mean, work remote homeschooled. So in theory, we could live in Antarctica if we wanted to, but, um, but in practice, like my kids have, you know, back home, they’ve got dance classes, they’re in music classes, there’s, they’re friends, community, all that kind of stuff.

Um, that, that, uh, is, is so, is so important, you know, to them, even though we do, um, homeschool. So, um, that,

[00:21:59] Willem: it be [00:22:00] viable to do half, half.

[00:22:02] Kalen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would kind of be the move is like, if we could, um, come down here for like vacations and stuff, um, it’s still just, it’s still, um, so maybe that’ll happen at some point.

Um, but I mean, we’re kind of doing that now, I guess, but like, if, if we really wanted to come back here, like if we wanted to like try to get a place here, then we really would be. Coming here pretty regularly, but, um,

[00:22:29] Willem: And can you do all your work from there?

[00:22:33] Kalen: yeah, yeah, pretty much the, yeah, I mean the internet in this particular Airbnb is like, it’s good.

Some it’s it’s okay. But like, you know, even just having a conversation, having it cut off for five seconds at a time is like, it it’s surprising how much that impact. Yeah. It’s surprising how much that can impact you. But yeah. I mean, I, I, I could, um, it’s um, but I don’t know. It’s it’s um, I mean, [00:23:00] it’s cool here.

It’s just like, for example, it’s just little things. Like we can’t, like, we don’t really it’s like if my wife and I want to go take a walk together, we can’t really do that so much because we gotta have, somebody has to be here watching the kids. Um, When my youngest one youngest son is like maybe a year older.

That’ll probably change. But so we do a lot of divide and conquer. One of us is doing something with the kids, the other one’s going for a walk and stuff. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a different, it’s just a lot different than like the times we just came here by ourselves kind of, kind of a deal. Um, just a

[00:23:33] Willem: I just know when, when, when I was there, my, my trip to Costa Rica was so adventurous that when I got back or when I was there, I was constantly thinking like, this is cool for me, but I wouldn’t take my daughter here just because, I mean, I went to Cova and stuff and went diving with, with, with sharks. And, but just that the fact that you can walk somewhere and you can have a, a Daly snake that’s, [00:24:00] that’s smaller than your hand.

[00:24:02] Kalen: Um, that’s just, that’s a lot different than here in the Netherlands where the

biggest risk I see. I’m not. Yeah. Yeah. I, I’m not down with deadly snakes either, man. I don’t think they have any of those out here at the beach. Um, Dude. I’m not, yeah, I’m not into deadly snakes sharks. There are alligators or crocodiles, whatever it is out here, which there’s a, there’s a river, it’s called an estuary that, that goes into that, um, funnels into the, the, the ocean and there’s crocodile in the river.

And you can go take a boat tour and see ’em. I have no idea why people do that. I have no interest in alligators and, and, but they do occasionally go into the ocean where people are surfing. I’ve never seen one while I was surfing there. Hasn’t been like an attack for like ever. Um, so it’s more of [00:25:00] a fear.

Like, it’s like what you’re saying about the shark it’s like, in, in, in practice, it’s not a real, it’s not a real risk, but every time I’m out there surfing, I’m just like looking around, nervous about it, you know? So yeah. It’s kind of. It’s kind of wild,

What, what does your work currently? What, how does that look? Your work? Is it mostly you automated most of your, your work, right? So is it, is it mostly just talking to people

well, um, it’s, it’s, um, I’ll go, I’ll kind of be in different modes. Like if I’m in, if I’m in an, I’m kind of in more of a passive mode right now where I’m kind of, I’m answering emails and if, if somebody says, Hey, I’m looking for a job. Okay, cool. And then I’ll send, I’ll kind of review their profile and then send them out to a couple of clients that are looking to hire, um, And then, and the same thing on the client side, if a client emails me, I’ll say, cool.

I’ll, I’ll try to match them up, but it’s more like [00:26:00] PA it’s more, a little more passive. Um, and then if I’m in more of an active mode, then I’m kind of going, and I’m kind of connecting with X number of people on LinkedIn every day. And, um, and then actively trying to find, you know, find candidates and clients to kind of match up.

And then usually what’ll happen is if I do that for a little bit, like a month or two, then I’ll, I’ll build up some, um, some ma some, some, some momentum and some hires, and then I’ll get some, uh, some hires that’ll happen and then they’ll, um, you know, and then they’ll, you know, continue to kind of do their thing for the next few months.

So that’s kind of the rhythm I’ve, I’ve settled into a little bit.

[00:26:40] Willem: And is it, how, how much of your, how much of your business is nor related still you, you started to do a bit wider also Shopify stuff and just

[00:26:51] Kalen: Yeah. I mean, It’s probably still 90% 95. I mean, um, yeah, like I’ve [00:27:00] had people say, Hey, I wanna hire somebody Shopify. And I’ll, you know, I’ll try to put some feelers out and I think I’ll, I’ve gotten a couple of matches, but, um, it, it’s probably still nine, like 90%. Um,

Cool.

yeah.

So Magental still provides for you

Magento still provides for me.

Yeah. I just, um,

many

yeah. Yeah, it’s true. I mean, it’s yeah, it’s, it’s, um, it’s definitely in many ways. Like, I, I think in, I think in my, like in my mind share or it, you know, in, um, in how I think about. eCommerce and things like that, which is hopefully increasingly less every day. Um, I see it as being a smaller, like in the grand scheme of things, of, of, of people doing eCommerce and stuff like that.

Like I see it as being smaller and smaller, but it, [00:28:00] but in my own, um, you know, in my own business, it’s, it’s still, like you said, it’s what is pays the bills. Um, and I think that, um, yeah, I mean, I think that’s just kind of how it is. Like a lot of people go, oh, well, Magento is, is losing market share. And, and I’m sure it is in many segments of the market.

Uh, but other, other segments are just chugging along, you know,

[00:28:29] Willem: The, the market as a whole has grown so much that, um, uh, a smaller market share doesn’t necessarily mean less smaller total.

[00:28:42] Kalen: Yeah. Total like the Yeah.

Yeah. The, the, the pie got bigger, um, and keeps getting bigger. So, and yeah, the small diversity and the, the, the landscape looks different than, than five years ago and even two years ago, but [00:29:00] that’s good because a large, large part of the market wasn’t even best served by Magental especially low end market.

[00:29:08] Willem: Um, and if a, if a merchant starts out fresh and they, they haven’t proven that product in a market yet they should definitely go for a hosted SAS solution

[00:29:18] Kalen: right, right.

[00:29:21] Willem: you’re. Yeah. Unless your requirements are really B2B or custom staff or price on requests and all these really specific, there’s a couple of verticals, automotive sec, uh, uh, automotive market, those kind of that’s.

That’s a bit more bit more tricky to do on a SA

[00:29:44] Kalen: Right, right. And, and what, how’s it going for you, man? Are things just continuing to grow outta control and stuff with HOA and

[00:29:55] Willem: not, not out of control. Luckily

[00:29:58] Kalen: Mm-hmm

[00:29:59] Willem: in [00:30:00] control all in control. Yeah. Um, yeah, we’re, we’re really maturing. Uh, also as a, as a, as a company, um, we’re, we’re hiring hiring slowly but steadily. So, uh, we, we got a, a big hire coming in September. That’s gonna help me more on sales and partnerships. Um, which is current.

Currently our path to growth is mostly expanding our sales actually. There are roughly a thousand sites live now. And my argument is if you can sell something a thousand times and a thousand times people are super enthusiastic and happy, that means you can sell it a hundred thousand times.

So we need to reach the, the rest of that market.

[00:30:47] Kalen: Wow. So you think the market is a hundred times bigger than what you currently have?

[00:30:54] Willem: I think there’s potential to grow really fast. If you see that on builtwith [00:31:00] we now, I think this morning I looked we’re at at 850 that they registered. PWA studio has 750, so that’s hundred less. We surpassed them in June.

[00:31:13] Kalen: That have felt kind of good. That must have felt good.

[00:31:17] Willem: Yeah, but also sad in a way. Because it doesn’t get traction that one might have hoped for. And as PWA studio is kind of the path forwards for Adobe’s version of Magento, if that doesn’t work well, that means that you lose quite a bit of adoption on Magento.

And, uh, we, we can compensate that and we can get a lot of people to hah. Um, and in that way, expand the market, uh, market of Magento, but it would be a lot more powerful if also another for, uh, storefronts. Um, the Magento market would grow. [00:32:00] Um, I think it would be unhealthy if, if HofA does 10,000 storefronts, uh, and, and PW studio has 1500 by the end of next year.

Um I’m and, um, yeah, I think if we look still, if you look also to other, other, um, front ends, uh hatless ones, um, if you look at, uh, few storefronts, um, big shout out because they released their magenta two, um, integration for few storefront two.

mm-hmm

so they already had few storefront, two for, I don’t know, maybe two years already, but they never migrated magenta two.

That was still on the old version of few storefront, their initial version. And now, um, they work two years on integrating it under on a newer version. Uh, that’s a lot, lot better, I think in, in a lot of ways, um, So, [00:33:00] um, they, I think that’s also really good. Like the, um, they, they announced that last week they had a big release party and, um, I think just the fact that they continue to invest in the, in the front end that works with Magento is good for the Magento ecosystem as a

[00:33:17] Kalen: Right, right, right. Having

[00:33:20] Willem: and I think yeah, having options and, um, there’s, there’s always a use case for the one front end or the other. And, uh, there are use cases for hatless storefronts. Um, and, um, actually we’re, we’re planning a, a webinar together with few store fronts and, um,

[00:33:41] Kalen: Nice man.

[00:33:41] Willem: free. Yeah. So we, we wanna, there’s so much confusion around PWA, single page application, multipage application, composable commerce, um, hatless um, all of these, um, Marketing kind [00:34:00] of got ahead of themselves and did a lot of hyping on all of those terms without fully crystallizing.

What, what those terms mean, uh, where they sit in the market. And, uh, Adobe played a big role in that with PWA studio and, and, um, really putting that as the future of, of the eCommerce eCommerce, front dance, uh, putting it out there like that with the promise of performance, while performance is only a requirement of a PWA, it doesn’t mean that if you build a PWA, it’s actually fast.

And now we have a lot of examples of PWAs that are not fast. Um, and we have a, we have an example of a front end, uh, in HofA that is really fast. Um, which is not a P so there’s, there’s just a whole, whole lot of options as a merchant and the agency that you have, and we fought, um, Philip [00:35:00] Kowski and me. So Philip is from few storefront and you might say we’re competitors or on the other end of the market.

But we both felt that there’s a need to explain what all these team all these terms mean. And things like, yeah, things like composable commerce.

If you ask me, we’ve been doing that for 10 years, Magento always has been composable a lot of people used it as a composable system. If you integrate ACH as a PIM and no vision as a E R P and you have search coming from CVU or from Sensi, from Adobe and your emails come from MailChimp at Cedar, that’s all composed.

It’s just the only difference now is they also put the front end, they separate back end the front end. So it’s hatless so that’s just one, one, plus it’s one extra service that doesn’t live in your Magental back end. But then instead of putting everything together in Magento as a service hub or a [00:36:00] microservice hub, they now tie everything together in middleware.

So if you, if you go hapless, you still need all of those data streams for all those microservices to somehow. Be composed to gather so that auditor information arise into one place. And, um, that’s just as complicated. And in some, in some cases, even a lot more complicated than tying everything together in a monolith.

Um, so

[00:36:28] Kalen: Hmm. It’s, it’s funny because I’m, I’m like, I’m, I’m much, I’m less and less connected to the, the nuts and bolts of, um, all the, all these things, you know, like, and, and I try, I tried to, I tried to give you the heads up that, um, I, I feel a little, I feel a little bit dumb when talk, when talking about these things.

Uh, but, but on the flip side, I might be more and more, a good example of like kind of a dumb, dumb is the wrong word. Kind of a, like, [00:37:00] like a, like a client yeah. Consumer or a client or somebody who is disconnected entirely from the technology. And like, literally, like I’ve heard the phrase composable commerce probably, but like, I, I don’t, I, I don’t have any context on it whatsoever, you know?

So like the description you’re giving, um, pretty much makes sense. Like, as you’re describing, I’m going like, well, yeah, I mean, we’ve had composable commerce in the sense that you’re composing together these different tools to, to build out your site. Um, uh, but, but I don’t know. I don’t even know exactly what people mean when they, you know, what’s meant by composable commerce.

[00:37:40] Willem: mm-hmm it’s it’s currently, it’s mostly used in the context of, of Atlas and, um, um, going for a microservice architecture. So you’re tying together all these microservices and all the microservices, um, are responsible for. Usually just one thing. [00:38:00] And, uh, that’s where Adobe’s also heading with. Yeah. So Adobe with the P offering is also heading to, um, putting all new features that they will add to their commerce toolkit will be microservices.

So you’ll have a stock service that serves your stock data, your inventory data you’ll have, um, a pricing microservice that’s super fast in serving prices per customer to, to your front end. But the complication there is that. Um, every, every new service that you add has its own manual has its own implementation details has its own API and somewhere, it all needs to communicate with each other.

And you need to keep all of the data on sync because your stock needs to know which skews you have, your sales or your, your pricing thing needs to know your screws. Um, your, your, your PIM needs to know all of these data and they all [00:39:00] need to communicate with each other. And then also be a super fast interface to serve data to the front end.

And that means you need special. You need a lot of specialists. So it gets very expansive, very fast, um, because yeah, you need a whole team of people that are specialized in, in all of those services. Um, and all of those services also have, have their own subscription fee or pricing model based on the amount of skews or the amount of visitors that you get.

[00:39:32] Kalen: So, um, Yeah, start writing a, a, a, a offer for, for a merchant with all of those services and, and, uh, and find out what the pricing will be. It’s, it’s, uh, it’s complicated.

mm-hmm . sense. That makes sense.

and it’s why, why we’re, we’re growing a lot faster, I guess, is because we sit in this space in the market where, uh, a lot of these [00:40:00] things are minimized to just working with the monolith that does a lot of things really well, and then integrate a couple of, uh, pre-integrated services.

[00:40:10] Willem: Um, so if you wanna use one of those, uh, search providers, it just works with plugins, just like classic Magento does. Um, and I think we, we can really, with Hova, we can really leverage that ecosystem. Um, and all those extension providers. Um, we cut. We just like, um, about two months ago, uh, we had this tipping point where, uh, companies like a Hatworks and MIAs fit and sty, um, and Webco, uh, and major works.

They all got on board to make their extensions compatible with Hiva.

[00:40:48] Kalen: Wow, that’s

[00:40:50] Willem: Um, yeah. Yeah. And it does this there’s different piece to each extension providers in which they make them compatible. But, um, [00:41:00] yeah, we it’s it’s um, it would depend a bit on momentum, I think also adoption rates. So, uh, but a couple of them like meals fit. It took, it took two months maybe, and they had 25 extensions made compatible with so that’s major

[00:41:16] Kalen: so cool. That’s really cool. Um, yeah, I’m I’m um, I was, I, I was, I was, like I said, I’m in a weird position because I used to be. And I’m thinking back to like those, those first ma talk days when, you know, we were just coding magenta all day, every day. And I was just in the guts of it all the time.

And just talking about the stuff we were doing and, you know, be messing with an extension and talking about some specific issue I ran into with an observer or whatever. And now I’m so disconnected from it. That I’m part of me is trying to kind of gro like what the. How you’re, how, how they’re, [00:42:00] um, and, and curious about how they’re integrating specifically with, um, how they’re making their extensions compatible with who, uh, and then the other part of me is like, ah, I don’t need to try to understand that I’m I should just, I should just stay at a high level but, um, but, but it’s, it’s cool to hear that because it just, it shows that your adoption is, is growing in.

I mean, that’s how an ecosystem builds out. You’ve got you start with a product that you get customers, you get more and more customers, you build your team and then you get the ecosystem of, um, other, um, extensions or other parties that are integrating. So that’s just, that’s really cool to hear

[00:42:43] Willem: yeah, so much work went, went into really helping those extension providers, um, writing good documentation, which pH I mostly. Yeah. Um, and, uh, we recorded the whole session of instruction, videos, how [00:43:00] you migrate Lua extension to Hiva. So step by step, how do you approach rewriting the JavaScript to the CSS?

How do you, um, provide an extension that both works with Luma and with Hova? Um, so all those, those nuts and bolts, uh, were explained in videos. And then we did one on one sessions where we, um, we gave trainings to those extension providers. Um, To answer the questions and everything. So we really, we, we really try to system there and we spent months and months and months making sanctions compatible ourselves to set the example.

So we have, we have this compatibility module repository, um, in our, in our, uh, our close GitLab. So all our customers can access that. And as a, there’s a couple hundred extensions, um, that are being worked on, uh, either by us or [00:44:00] by our customers. Uh, we incentivize that. So we really ask the agencies that work with Hova.

Uh, if they make an extension compatible that they would share that code with the rest of our customers so that everyone could profit and then ones that really put effort in there. Uh, we made those, uh, partners. Uh, of Hiva. So, um, that’s a nice incentive, uh, for them to also get more leads and to get more, more recognition in the, in the Hiva ecosystem.

And then with that, as soon as I could, as soon as I could go to amnesty and show them like, Hey, um, here’s, here’s eight extensions that we made compatible from amnesty for your own extensions and his 50 customers of yours that are already using it.

[00:44:44] Kalen: Oh

[00:44:45] Willem: What do you

[00:44:45] Kalen: That’s yeah.

[00:44:47] Willem: you’re already making money off of?

why, why wouldn’t you invest more, uh, into, into growing that out? Because, uh, you can get a lot of more traction than [00:45:00] you could get with PW PWA studio, and it’s a lot less work to make something compatible with Hova because of PW studio. It’s just, yeah. So

[00:45:10] Kalen: seen, like I’ve definitely been involved in sorry for the noise. I just had to go outside to get more coffee, but, um, I’ve definitely been involved in different projects where somebody is building out or even just observing the different platforms, do it, where, where someone is building out, um, you know, integration points for extension vendors or whatever, or, or people to use an API.

And, and there’s this chicken and egg process where you want them to use it, but you have to make it easy for them to use. And you have to have a lot of good examples and you have to, the adoption process is cuts this complicated, like chaotic process of adoption by the community. And then, and then the, the, the platform making it easy.

Um, and the way you describe that is just absolutely the way to do it. That’s um, That’s cool, man. This is why I call you the God king [00:46:00] man, the Magento God king. And I know that you don’t like it, but I, but I continue to do it partly because part partly because of how, how humble you are. That’s kind of what cracks me up about it too.

But,

You enjoy, you enjoy how unpleasant I feel when you do that. Yeah. It kind of gives me

I don’t, I don’t,

It, it kind of

I, I, I

of when you’re, when your mother gives you compliments when strangers are

exactly, exactly, but she’s doing it because she’s genuine. She, she does it cuz she genuinely loves you. She doesn’t care. But um, but anyways, uh, no, that’s a, uh, that’s, that’s really cool, man. I’m happy that you’re getting that, that adoption by the, the major extension vendors and stuff. Um,

[00:46:52] Willem: Yeah.

[00:46:54] Kalen: yeah. Good times.

Good times. So, um,

[00:46:59] Willem: do you, [00:47:00] how do you keep up with the, with, with the Magental ecosystem, if at all,

[00:47:05] Kalen: I really, I really what’s that. Sorry, I should let you finish the question.

[00:47:10] Willem: Yeah, because I, I noticed that you really change your social media behavior, uh, a while back. And it’s really like it, there’s a small window where you can have interaction with you on Twitter. And then, uh, once you stop answering, you know, it’s gonna be another 24 hours until you pick up the conversation.

[00:47:31] Kalen: You know the drill. Yeah.

you really have a, a set time that you use Twitter on the day, right?

Yes. Yes. So I, you know, part of this was just UN cuz I like I’ve been working on kind of unplugging from social media technology. I mean, um, I was, there was a time, I don’t know, however many years ago, five years ago, four years ago when I was so addicted to my phone, which was mostly Twitter that I was on [00:48:00] it all the time at, at, at home, in front of my kids and, and stuff like that.

And, and um, and it was, um, You know, it was not on the one on, you know, there’s like multiple levels you could analyze on the career slash connection with the community level. It was good, cuz I was more connected and, and, and it was intellectually engaging and stuff. But then on the other level I was, I was just addicted to the phone.

So I’ve been working on unplugging from it. And one of the ways I, I did that is to just, I kind of batch my work. Um, whether it’s email stuff or Twitter, LinkedIn, I just kind of batch it and I do it once in the, in the morning. Um, and sometimes I, I do wanna be on there more, you know, you wanna engage, you wanna see that blue dot and stuff like that.

And I’m, it’s been a process of trying to minimize that kind of on the, a addiction. Um, in the addiction sense, I turn off all my notifications for different [00:49:00] things and I think that’s been good for me, but, um, But then, you know, and, and, and then part of me was like, well, I just need to unplug entirely, go live in a mountain, never use technology ever again.

And then, um, and then I’ll come back the other direction and I’ll realize, like, I do enjoy the, the intellectually, like engaging with people and sharing ideas and things like that. So I kind of like, I started kind of trying to like write, I started share like a writing habit, like a month or two ago, which, which is I kind of work on crystal, like crystallizing ideas.

And a lot of ’em are very random. Some of them are not at all e-commerce related, but, um, that’s been kind of fun for me. And, um, so I, I go back and forth trying to find the right balance of it. Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s why I’m a lot of times incognito on, uh, on Twitter. Um,

That’s healthy, I guess. I’m [00:50:00] um, I know I really needed to do that when, when I have my, my, uh, my second burnout, uh, after that I really needed to, to, uh, cut all the noise and.

right,

really have some side. So I, I turned off everything on my phone. Um, and at some point it, um, I slowly, uh, started to reenable some things, but still, um, I’m, I’m still very disconnected from, uh, WhatsApp chats and I never enable notifications from group, uh, group chats.

Um,

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, because the group chats can get crazy. And I mean, you can’t have all your notifications on, like you, there’s some, I mean this day and age, there’s some, a number of notifications that you, you, you have to figure out what’s best for you to, to enable and disable. Um, and if you just have everything on, it’s just, it’s, it’s gonna, it’s gonna drive you crazy.[00:51:00]

Um, but yeah, trying to find it. It’s funny though. I have, I, I, I, I do like think sometimes I’ve been doing this recruiting thing for like, oh, coming on six years now. And, um, and it’s just

you got a recruiting thing?

I know, I know, I know. I used to, I used to avoid the

[00:51:19] Willem: are you in peace with yourself now?

[00:51:22] Kalen: No, I’m not a piece of it. I just call.

I just like, like I, so, so when I would meet people and they would say, what do you do? I’d be like, oh, I built this platform to connect people who are trying to hire and blah, blah, blah. And they go, they look at me like, what? And now I just say, I do recruiting for software developers. And it just it’s a faster, I just, I know it’s, it’s bizarre.

I just, I just accepted the R word. Um, but, um, and my Twitter bio, I put developer turned recruiter sorta. It’s kind of weird. Um, but I it’s like it. You know, it pays the bills and, and, um, I, I feel like I do it in a, in a way that I [00:52:00] I’m, I’m comfortable with. I think, I don’t know. There’s probably a lot of people that do it in a slimy way, but I do have this thought more and more often, which is like, I, I wish this thing would just dry up and I’d be forced to do something else because like, I, you know, I just want to, I.

I just want to do something else it’s kind of like, it ain’t broke, don’t fix it kind of a problem. So, but then I’m like, man, if my mind just completely ROS to the point where I have no, uh, skills, no valuable skills whatsoever, gonna be in a bad place. You know, I’m gonna be 58 years old. I’m gonna have no skills, not gonna know anything about composable commerce.

Um, so yeah, we’ll see, see how it goes.

but,

turns on the

You you’re gonna turn, you’re gonna turn all of your kids into entrepreneurs, right?[00:53:00]

dude. Yeah, that’s the plan. That’s the plan. I was. possibly you never wanna rule bananas out. Um, you never, you never wanna rule ’em out? Um, no, I was, I was, um, I keep seeing like this stuff on, on TikTok actually related to like print on demand businesses, um, which is basically just you create a t-shirt design or a mug design, and there’s like, you just sell it, um, without needing to have any inventory or whatever.

And it, I don’t know if these posts I’m seeing are all like hype or not, but they’re like, oh, I’m making all this money doing it. Um, and I think that the tools to enable, like these tools have existed for a while, but I think this, this, this, the, the websites and the tools for doing it have just matured to a point where you can get a nice level of quality.

You can, um, You can just kind of make it work. And my daughter’s really into illustration and art [00:54:00] and drawing and clothes and fashion and stuff. So it’s like, oh, how cool would that be? If I could get something like that off the ground with her. And, um,

you’ve

then just, yeah,

obviously you, you, you got the, the hah hat and the shirt. Uh, Doose came from print for print.com.

That’s it. See, you’re part of the revolution. You’re part of the print on demand revolution right there.

[00:54:22] Willem: the only issue there is that they, they offer the tools to, uh, get it printed and shipped. Um, but then they don’t offer a storefront. So nothing, uh, nothing facing your customer. So, so if I wanna actually sell merchandise, I need to set up a store that integrates with Printful and they have to integration and everything, but I still would need to set up a store.

Um, and, uh, then I, then I need someone to run the store and, uh, respond to, I mean, once you start now, I’m just shipping out to, uh, to partners and, and, uh, [00:55:00] and, uh, influences us yourself . But, um, as soon as you start selling stuff,

[00:55:05] Kalen: I thought I was the only one I thought I was the only one you sent stuff to I’m now I’m sitting now I’m saddened. I’m sad

[00:55:12] Willem: at least Brent, at least Brent had it, uh, had it. Uh, ready for the podcast. I saw the

[00:55:18] Kalen: Well, I thought BR I, I thought Brad made, I thought Brad made the hat himself. I thought he actually physically fabric. Cuz I, I was like, will would’ve only sent one to me. There’s no, yeah. There’s no way he sent one to Brent. So I just figured he recreated as, as fan art, but um

[00:55:35] Willem: the issue is if, if you start selling it, people will complain if the, if the stitching gets loose or if something’s, something’s not right. And then you have to deal with customer support on, on bloody t-shirts. Um,

[00:55:50] Kalen: right, right, right, right, right.

[00:55:52] Willem: that’s kind of holding me back on actually selling merchandise because it’ll be it’ll cost me even more time than, [00:56:00] than selling licenses that we currently do.

[00:56:04] Kalen: right. That’s interesting, man. That’s an interest. And that, and it’s an interesting angle because I like the, I, I was thinking of like, I like a business cuz you know, I’ve been connected into different worlds where people are selling merch or, or they’re, or they’re doing swag and stuff like that. And it’s um, you know, it’s kind of a fun thing.

It’s not like a big priority, but it’s something people will spend a few bucks on. And I was thinking like, well, what if, what if she could like help people design? Like I was actually thinking of having her design something Hoover related, like some kind of a, I don’t know, something, um, just for the fun of it.

And uh, but, but, but like if you could help, cause I’m sure there’s tons of people in your position that, you know, they have something you wanna sell, but it’s just not worth their time to mess around with a lot. So, um, you know, maybe that would be a, an angle on.

[00:56:51] Willem: So she should, I should license out the right for merchandise to you and your daughter. And then you will run the store.

[00:56:59] Kalen: Absolutely. [00:57:00] Do, do we have a deal? Do we have a handshake agreement?

[00:57:04] Willem: We need to talk figures.

[00:57:05] Kalen: Ah, okay. See the, see three years ago, three years ago, Willam, would’ve been like, yeah, deal. But now you’re, you’re a big CEO guy, you know, the, and uh, you’re like let’s we gotta talk. We gotta talk figures. We gotta ink a deal. Um,

how

no, that’s

what do you use for the, the Mitch talk merchandise? Because that’s fully that’s that just chips without you doing it. Do you realize you still have a me talk merchandise store?

no, I didn’t even know that. Has it. Somebody bought something there nobody’s bought anything there. You’re messing. You’re messing with

[00:57:42] Willem: since you, since you didn’t send me a mark yourself, I have a mark that I ordered from your Mitch dog store

[00:57:49] Kalen: When,

[00:57:50] Willem: and assure and assure actually.

[00:57:52] Kalen: when this was like nine years ago.

[00:57:56] Willem: so no, before I had my [00:58:00] first, um, I was on me talk the first time when I started doing Hiva and I thought it would be funny to wear the me dog shirt.

[00:58:10] Kalen: Totally.

[00:58:11] Willem: So, um, I bought it at some point and, uh, I used it in one of our own recordings as well, and I thought that it was kind of a, a social media bait that I fought then Philip and Kalin will reread it very, very often because I’m I’m.

Uh, but that never happened. So

[00:58:31] Kalen: That didn’t happen. That didn’t happen. sorry, dude.

[00:58:35] Willem: I didn’t wear it since

[00:58:40] Kalen: Uh, that was, that, that was, that was a smart move. That was a smart move. Um, Now, now all I do is call you the God king on Twitter. Yeah, yeah, no, it’s interesting. Um,

Why did the revenue go. Now, you

I don’t know. I, I,

items.

I don’t know, man. I [00:59:00] think, I think we need to have a little investigation into Phillip’s bank accounts. See what’s going on.

He might be, he might be hiding funds, you know, I don’t know. I, I, I, uh, I really don’t. Oh, my kids are really going at it now. Um, yeah, it’s funny, man. It’s funny. This is cool. I, this is, this is, um, I really, this is my second time doing an audio pod, did one with TJ with absolutely horrendous audio. And I’m, I’m really enjoying it.

I have to say the video I’ve done so many of the video ones, which I, I would kind of enjoy, but they would just kind of, would just kind of just too much friction. A lot of friction uhoh kids are going really crazy in the house now. So this has been

I have my camera on, but you’re not, you’re ignoring my camera.

completely ignoring, completely ignoring because that’s the problem is then I get, I get, um, I don’t know.

It’s just so much easier for me to talk. Yeah. It’s just so much easier for me to talk. [01:00:00] If I’m looking at birds flying around, you know,

[01:00:03] Willem: How big are the chances that you would be at meet Magento New York, this September 20

[01:00:14] Kalen: not that big. Are you, are you are you gonna be there?

you would be a big reason for me to try and make that work. I have, I still have to, I have to have a really serious conversation with my wife, um, for traveling there a week before Mitch conference in Germany, which I also want to attend.

Uh,

so I don’t know how much I can travel during that time, but I would really love to go to, uh, meet

We could just hang out for a couple days

Yeah, I I’ve never been to a Magental event in the us, so, um, I, yeah, I’m I never had the box. I had my agency and it’s just all too low skill [01:01:00] to, to be able to afford tickets

You got that New York money now you got that New York money.

[01:01:06] Willem: now, now I could probably, I could probably get a ticket, uh, uh,

[01:01:12] Kalen: nice.

[01:01:13] Willem: ticket to fly there. Yeah.

[01:01:14] Kalen: Nice. Well, maybe I’ll may, should we stay in the same hotel room together or we’re not, we’re not, we’re we’re friends, but we’re not friends like that. We’re not, we’re not

[01:01:25] Willem: You won’t even look at me now,

[01:01:27] Kalen: we’re we’re close, but we’re not that we’re not that close. That we’d. Those hotel rooms. Get it pricey. Once you look ’em up, you’re gonna realize they charge a pretty penny.

[01:01:41] Willem: I, I remember I, when I went to cross Rica, I stayed in New York for. I think three days and I spent more those three days than I think two weeks in Costa Rica.

[01:01:54] Kalen: that’s wild. That’s crazy. That’s crazy. [01:02:00] Um,

Okay.

let’s keep dialogue

there.

Let’s keep a, let’s keep a dialogue going. Um, which is by the way, which is what people say when they’re the answer is no, but they don’t wanna say no, they say let’s keep a dialogue going. Right. Do you hear that? Is that an American thing or do Europeans say that too? Do Germans say that let’s keep a dialogue going? That wasn’t a good, that wasn’t a good German accent.

[01:02:28] Willem: um, I’m not, I’m not gonna try to, uh, to, to do a better one now. Um, but, um, what do we see? Um, I don’t know, man, but, um, So now we don’t have confidence that you’re actually gonna look into possibilities to come there.

[01:02:48] Kalen: I’m thinking about it. I’m thinking about, I, honestly, before you, before you said you were, you, you wanted to go cuz I was I’d be there. I was 0%, 0.0%. But now I’m 20, [01:03:00] 25%. 25%. So you,

be legendary.

Yeah, actually you infinity Xed the, the percentages

yeah. From zero to 25

zero to 20. That’s not a 25. I told, well, I told you my brain is rotting.

My brain is rotting slowly but surely.

[01:03:22] Willem: but the energy, the energy in London meet meat MASU UK last month was fantastic. Just people, people were so, so hyped to see each other again. And, uh, COVID has really messed up all our personal relations and just.

[01:03:42] Kalen: Yeah.

[01:03:42] Willem: It was, it was great just to be there and see everyone and, uh, spent the night dancing with, with Teash.

Um, that’s, um, that’s, that’s worth that’s gold and I, I think, um, New York, it it’s the biggest Magento [01:04:00] event that you’ll have in the us. And, um, you’ll be received as a hero. I think , what’s the when’s the last time you went

what’s the last time you were at a Magental

[01:04:12] Kalen: people are gonna be like, who the hell is this guy? It’s been a while. It’s been a, been a high minute. Um, So we’ll see, let’s, let’s continue a dialogue. Let’s continue a dialogue, but, well, this has been, this has been fantastic. I think this is going on the ma talk podcast feed.

I think this is, I think this qualifies for some classic ma talk content. We haven’t published in like six months, but I’m gonna just drop it in the feed, like a beast. So,

That’s that’s gonna be, people are gonna

and you know what can do.

talk.

Yeah. gonna like, it? That’s like, yeah.

what we can do. We [01:05:00] can try this audio has gone really well. So what we can try for the next one is I’ll turn my video on. I’m still not gonna look at anything. So nobody’s gonna be looking at anybody, but there will be two pieces of video that can go up on YouTube. We can, we can try that. Mine’s gonna look really strange, but we can give it a shot

Are you.

if you’re, if you’re

you be wearing sleeves? Will you be wearing sleeves or

Um, I kind of feel like now I have to, I have to do tank top every single time, just because they told me not to. So I I’m gonna have to overcome that temptation,

It was funny to see that leash, uh, pointed out that they call that a wife beater in Polish,

um, which Yeah.

translation from the American wife beater, um, which is not a compliment to the shirt, I guess. Um,

[01:06:00] It’s a strange word because it’s, um, it’s, it’s people, U like my wife uses the word, just like, it’s such a normal, like word to use you don’t it’s like you say the phrase, but you don’t actually associate it with the, the action, which of course is like

[01:06:17] Willem: so.

[01:06:19] Kalen: but she just say it like, oh yeah, we’re in a white feeder.

It’s like what? It’s like, it’s such a bizarre phrase that, um, you know,

[01:06:28] Willem: I think we would in the Netherlands, we would call that either, uh, a tank top or a singlet.

[01:06:36] Kalen: well, to be clear and I want to correct the record for, for, for the people out there. It, the, a white feeder is actually, it has to be white. It’s a white take and it’s a different, it’s a different

[01:06:48] Willem: It has to be stains. It has to have

[01:06:50] Kalen: It should be stained, ideally, but even if, even if it’s not stain, it has to be white. It’s always white.

It’s not a green, mine was green. And then, and then also the Slee or the, [01:07:00] which I call it the cut. It has to be lower cut down to where you can see part of the ribs cut type of deal. So I just wanna clarify for the record, you know, understand

SEARU ones, the noted ones, uh, from Y M C a does

no that’s ano no, that’s another, that’s a whole that gets us. Yeah. That gets us. That’s it gets us into a whole other category. I’m not, I don’t have any of those queued up in my, in my closet at the moment. Um, a, that would be a, that’s a different, that’s a, yeah, that’s a different one. Um, man, I gotta go.

I think, I think my kids are going crazy out here, but been a

[01:07:39] Willem: I enjoyed.

[01:07:40] Kalen: dude. Thanks

[01:08:00]